1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Cavaleiros Embassy

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by General_W, Mar 4, 2009.

  1. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,198
    Location:
    Washington State (GMT -8)
    Got to continue my talk with Methos.
    It didn’t really go “well” – if by that you mean I talked him into a trade.

    It was pretty revealing about their attitude though.
    I did what I could to push to make a trade happen… I guess we’ll find out. I’m not holding my breath.

    Spoiler :

    Methos:
    hello again
    Methos:
    while we continue to discuss our options, we would like to go with the phony war for the moment.
    Methos:
    We would simply like to continue to move forward with our wb while our two great nations discuss our options
    General_W:
    hey - back now. How was your movie?
    Methos:
    it was ok
    Methos:
    we watched the new hulk movie
    General_W:
    oh yeah? I H-A-T-E-D the first one.
    General_W:
    swore of the Hulk forever after that. lol
    Methos:
    hehe
    General_W:
    anyway - I'll report back what you said.
    General_W:
    but your team doesn't even want to suggest a trade?
    Methos:
    we're still discussing possible options
    General_W:
    I know it's going to make some people on our team skeptical about the "but we really do want to be friends" line if we don't see any interest in deal making (= not a threat. Just trying to forewarn you).
    Methos:
    understand
    Methos:
    had we not cared, then why did we wait on the phony war?
    General_W:
    that's a good point. But of course there is a difference between "hostile" and "unfriendly"
    Methos:
    besides, I'm sure you wouldn't want us as an enemy
    General_W:
    To be sure! We're the ones proposing generous deals here, remember :D
    Methos:
    agree, but not always the best for our team, or even equal footing
    General_W:
    oh? how so?
    Methos:
    we will continue to discuss it on our end and will get back to you when a decision is made
    Methos:
    I'm curious if your nation is okay with a phony war?
    Methos:
    while we continue to discuss
    General_W:
    yeah - I think so. That was on option we offered of our own volition, wasn't it?
    Methos:
    yes, but we don't desire that to be our only option
    General_W:
    lol - we'll, we're kinda hoping you won't take that option
    General_W:
    all our tech trade proposals were geared to be generous in your direction (not to mention the OB deal)
    General_W:
    so I'm a little puzzled by your "not equal footing" comment.
    General_W:
    if you can tell me why - we'll try to do better next time :)
    Methos:
    as you mentioned earlier, alphabet is a powerful tech in mp games
    General_W:
    well, what I was trying to say is that I (and many people on our team) have found it oddly less valuable in MP games - due to the fact that most humans get it more quickly than the AI. enabling you to trade with most people even if you don't personally have it.
    General_W:
    case in point - until we met the Mad Scientists, we didn't it to offer any tech trades.
    General_W:
    but that said, if you wanted to counter-offer with some kind of trading moratorium on Alphabet - the team might be open to that.
    Methos:
    so we give you alpha so you can trade with MS?
    Methos:
    btw, just curious why you'd tell me you know them
    General_W:
    uhm - our F4 screen shows that you have Open Borders with them. (ie - you can presumably see that we know them also)
    General_W:
    am I confused?
    Methos:
    no, I'm simply not concentrating enough on this discussion. hehe
    General_W:
    in any case - we're really not trying to pull anything over on you. Alphabet is a good tech (obviously) - that's why we're offering a 50 beaker premium on it plus the extra trade income you'll get each turn.
    General_W:
    plus the opportunity to enjoy long mentally stimulating conversations with the witty and handsome General_W ;)
    Methos:
    you mean 100 beakers
    General_W:
    is it?
    General_W:
    uhmmm... well if my math is right, it looks like 506 to 448.
    General_W:
    unless I added wrong / had wrong beaker values.
    Methos:
    I was talking about the original option that granted us 100 beaker credit
    General_W:
    oh right
    General_W:
    if you're more interested in going the Metal Casting route
    Methos:
    just recalling all options that we were given
    General_W:
    :D - you can't say we're starving you for options!
    Methos:
    hehe, nope
    General_W:
    ok - I gotta run here. Time to put the little one down for the night.
    General_W:
    Thanks for chatting though. Looking forward to hearing what your team has to say.
     
  2. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    Bah. if our axeman finds thier borders can we steal a worker? :D
     
  3. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    We could tell them that we can research alpha by t85 (we get it eot t88 if we go sailing>writing>alphabet, t85 if we can trade for writing, which Kaz may accept, we just...adjust the delivery dates of the techs), so either way, we are going to trade with MS, the only option they have, is do they get sailing, masonry and mono or not. Frankly, we don't need to tech CoL anymore, we just need to find Saturn, so we can afford the detour. Point out that we don't want to sell alpha to any other teams (and as such, we don't wish to undercut Cavs ability to trade) and that we don't need monarchy for a short while (yes, this basically admits that we are getting forges up, and we have gems, but the former should be obvious and the latter will be known in 3 turns anyway). Also, point out that MS and us have identical techs atm, other than polytheism, which while we are interested in, is hardly a game breaker, and if Cavs wished to provide a deal for poly we would definately consider it.

    Maybe play it that yeah, we are interested in alphabet, what would they want off us for it? We've made one fair offer for it, but if it's a sellers market...although if they are too greedy, then they lose another sale.

    And as an addendum: Let them move through our borders. Next turn offer (demand off them?) peace (after they have moved); they will still be in our borders, but point out it bumps them one tile further up, and we are still trying to show them we are trying to be nice with them, consider it another small favour that we hope counts towards a tech trade.

    This does Memphus' trap, and gives us enough time to get the trireme/galley and then we blackmail them for OB (...writing, alpha) or just leave the wb there to rot. They have shown that they don't want to be allies, and frankly, I'm OK with that, so let's play a little hardball.

    Oh, and throw back the line "But we're sure you don't want us as your enemy, either", because whichever way you spin it, we are going to be enemies if they don't trade us alpha.
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    I don't think trapping or killing any workboats is going to help us diplomatically.

    You never know who your ally is going to be later in the game, as the balance of power can change dramatically over the course of the game.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    Kaz, and Cav, are now so far ahead in tech that the rest of us, Saturn, MS and ourselves, can't focus on the late game right now, otherwise they are going to run away in the tech race. That's why we really need to set up a tech alliance with MS, and with Saturn, asap. That's why we need alphabet, which we could research fairly fast.

    Cavs are already pissing us off, as have Kaz, both by rebuffing (decent) tech deals with us. They have already made the decision that they don't want us as allies, that they view us as a threat. They have more options for the future than we do atm because of our respective positions.

    The first part of what I posted about previously, is something we should do if they decide against trading with us, if we decide we want to push the issue. If they then agree with the trade, we wouldn't have any reason to be more provocative. Ideally, Methos and G_W could hammer out a deal where we get alpha by t90 for the techs that we offered, and that we trade MC with them for another tech (we can ask them to provide offers, because we don't know what they are researching or will have) and that we are willing to use the higher cost of MC to offset a difference in the price. This is where we are willing to compromise, but we also use the fact that we can get alpha by ourselves as leverage for not paying over the odds.

    If they refuse, then it's more and more evidence that they do not like us. That makes being more...defensive of our terrain understandable (to MS and Saturn, as Cavs will probably go screaming that we attacked their scouting vessel. Our counter argument is that they are selfish and aren't willing to trade, or compromise with us), because we are letting one of our enemies scout out our city sites for nothing in return.

    Then, we give them a black and white choice. Play nice and be our friends or don't and make us into their enemies. We explain that ye reap what ye sow, because we gave them several options that were beneficial to both of our teams, but they chose to ignore our offers of friendship. I don't want to do this, but we need to show them that we aren't going to screw about and let them walk all over us like we are just a dumb AI.
     
  6. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    Ok this is how I see it:

    We have been nice to Kaz and Cav: each providing them ample opportunities and very very fair trades.

    Kaz is gone so we can't play hardball there.

    Cav is still right with us and they don't know what our coast looks like:

    So I say we:
    1. give them one more chance.
    2. Playhardball and trap thier wb, then give them another chance.
    3. Give them a finally this is your 5th offer you have shown us no respect, and isue it with a threat.
    4. sink thier WB, zoof runs wild in thier borders, and then the trireme goes for a war of attrition.
     
  7. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Out there, somewhere, anywhere...
    I'm quite certainly no expert at multiplayer, but I'm really wary early wars of attrition, if you look at the history of demogames early wars generally hurt the agressor more then the agressee (?), look at team tnt in the first demogame for example.
     
  8. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    We don't even know if Cav and Kaz are on our landmass.

    I think we have to be very careful about early wars, cause I think barbs are going to be an enormous problem for everyone for a long time.
     
  9. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    3,904
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Devil's Punchbowl
    At least 3 of Cav’s 5 cities are entirely inland so a blockade might not do much, also considering we may have to sail through Kazakhstan to get there they will likely have plenty of warning.

    Since we invited them to declare war and promised safe passage, trapping or sinking their boat now would be way uncool even if we get technical and don't hit them until they exit our borders.

    An overland choke has some potential but since a single axe is probably more annoying than dangerous we should keep this plan in reserve until we are better prepared.

    Given the great distance between us and the fact that they are more advanced a threat is probably not going to get us very far.

    So for now we should give them another chance while pursuing a counter balancing alliance.
     
  10. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,198
    Location:
    Washington State (GMT -8)
    Another bit of trench warfare with Methos again today.
    I think I've got him on the run… that doesn't mean they're necessarily going to do a deal with us – but I've badgered him about it about as far as I can push it. If they don't offer a trade or come back with a crazy-good reason why they don't want to trade, I'm to the point now where I certainly support trapping their Work boat with the peace-treaty trick… and I'm closer to supporting the sinking of their WB… but not quite there yet.

    Here's the full chat.
    I'll left in all the off-topic friendly stuff. But if people think it makes it harder to read, I can delete the stuff out for future reference. Just let me know.

    Spoiler :

    Methos:
    hello
    Methos:
    I'm rather surprised. I had assumed that you had met Saturn.
    General_W:
    and now you assume we havent?
    Methos:
    its still possible
    General_W:
    :D
    General_W:
    A quick loook at the F4 sceen should tell you.
    Methos:
    the F4 screen states we are currently at war, if you haven't noticed

    Note from General_W: I think Methos may have slipped here - revealing that they know Saturn, and he saw that we hadn't met them yet. I tried to trick him into saying that more clearly - but I think he realized his mistake and quickly changed the topic.

    General_W:
    I haven't looked personally - but you warned us you'd be DoWing us to pass through the borders. so no supprise there.
    General_W:
    in update from your team on a potential tech deal?
    General_W:
    *any
    Methos:
    I was under the impression upon our choosing of a phony war, you did not desire much dealings with us
    General_W:
    I'm not sure how you got that impression. You're making me feel like a failure as a diplomat here.
    Methos:
    brb changing a poopie diaper
    Methos:
    hehe, a bit too much on the prune juice
    General_W:
    ewwww
    Methos:
    you should be used to it, hehe
    Methos:
    don't tell me she does all the diaper changes
    General_W:
    I try to trade as many other chores as possible in exchange for no poopy diapers. so I'd say I get out of 90% of them. it's a good gig. :D
    Methos:
    hehe
    General_W:
    so - please please tell me you're not serious about thinking we don't want to trade. You're depressing me here man.
    Methos:
    you did threaten us if we chose not to work with you. That is hard to take any other way
    General_W:
    Threats? lol
    General_W:
    can I be frank with you?
    Methos:
    sure
    General_W:
    I'm getting the very strong impression that you're playing games with us to avoid making any trades because you want to stay nice long enough to get your WB past so you can go back to plotting against us. I have yet to sense any sincre desire to trade - just excuses and delay tactics to avoid it. Am I off the mark?
    Methos:
    sorry, on phone, wife called about poopie
    General_W:
    lol - that's a legitimate one. I'll buy that :)
    Methos:
    back
    Methos:
    as I'm sure you are aware, you can tell a lot about how kids are feeling by their poop
    Methos:
    sorry
    Methos:
    No, that is incorrect.
    Methos:
    We do desire to maintain a friendship, but we honestly couldn't come up with something that we felt was worry.
    General_W:
    was "worry"?
    Methos:
    worthy
    General_W:
    And you don't think that seems awfully fishy in light of our multiple proposals that are weighted in your favor?
    Methos:
    As you once mentioned, it is still early in the game, so taking credits from each other isn't something we are yet comfortable with
    Methos:
    I like how you turn the tide. I was told you were a great diplomat and have seen nothing to disagree with that statement
    General_W:
    lol - look, I'm just calling it as I see it.
    General_W:
    I can understand the aversion to working on credit... but in our latest proposal, the credit is all on your side - with us trusting you.
    General_W:
    That seems (to me) like a very trusting thing to offer.
    General_W:
    so it's kind of supprising to be accused of being hostile.
    Methos:
    again, if we did not seek to build our friendship, then why would we have held our ground that first turn instead of starting a phony war then?
    Methos:
    the accusation was not in jest, as you yourself stated in a prior discussion a semi-threat, though light as it was
    Methos:
    you are a diplomat and a good one, so I must take any threat, veiled or otherwise, in all seriousness
    General_W:
    Well, in my defense, I was responding to your "you don't want us as enemies" comment.
    General_W:
    I think we've equally threatened eachother here. :)
    General_W:
    That's just the name of the game, right? Carrot & Stick.
    Methos:

    [21:41] General_W (Sancta): I know it's going to make some people on our team skeptical about the "but we really do want to be friends" line if we don't see any interest in deal making (= not a threat. Just trying to forewarn you).

    General_W:
    see - Not a threat. :D
    General_W:
    look, in general I try to maintain a stict, "no threat" policy. But you tell me what to do in this situation: Party A offers Party B a lot of options to trade and be friends. Party B chooses 'none of the above' and offers no alternative trade and no convincing reasons on why they don't like the options offered to them.
    General_W:
    How should Party A respond?
    Methos:
    The fact that we are talking with you at all should indicate our desire of some sort of cooperation
    Methos:
    if we didn't desire it, then why would we be discussing this at all?
    General_W:
    It indicates you don't want to get your workboat sunk or be the ones to declare war before you're ready. I'm not sure it indicates anything beyond that.
    Methos:
    you and I both know it is far too early to be dow'ing on each other
    General_W:
    exactly my point
    General_W:
    ergo - talking and not starting a hostile war proves.... ?
    Methos:
    it proves nothing
    General_W:
    bingo
    Methos:
    other then that we are reasonable
    Methos:
    yeah, I know. realized it after I said it
    General_W:
    if by "reasonable" you mean "not irrational" - then I agree :) ... but it doesn't prove you actually want to be "friends" (and by friends I mean "looking for cooperation beyond stalling long enough to get our military into position")
    Methos:
    our military? a workboat? I didn't realize our navy was so strong and formidable!
    General_W:
    If it were, I'm not so sure you'd be talking to me!
    General_W:
    lol
    Methos:
    agree, which is why I'm confused
    Methos:
    if we desired war, or were planning on it, then why would I be talking to you
    General_W:
    Because you're not ready for war yet.
    General_W:
    like you said earlier.
    Methos:
    nor do we desire it
    General_W:
    If you REALLY don't want war - then we should trade and be friends.
    General_W:
    your (apparent) lack of desire to trade makes us deeply suspicious that you don't really want to be friends either.
    Methos:
    surely you're aware that dow'ing this early on anyone would more then likely harm the victor, rathen the help them
    Methos:
    rather
    General_W:
    We don't expect you to come after us in the next 20 turns.
    General_W:
    we expect you to send out your best diplomats, talk fancy, avoid any trades, offer platitiudes, and generally stall till you ARE ready to go to war.
    General_W:
    if you'd like to change that perception - it's very easy
    Methos:
    lol if we were sending out our best diplomats, it would not have been me, but thanks for the compliment
    General_W:
    :) it was intended as a compliment.
    General_W:
    look - I'm just saying, we're trying to negotiate towards friendship in good faith. Not just with words, but with real deals on the table. So far, there's been no reciprocation from your side. Growing paranoia on our side is the inevitable outcome. If you sincerely want us as friends, the power is totally in your hands to change the current path.
    Methos:
    We will continue to discuss, though at this time I don't see any trades we are currently willing to make. Granted, that doesn't not mean in the future we won't have something we are willing to trade.
    Methos:
    The paranoia runs on both sides btw.
    General_W:
    Our offering multiple trades and allowing you to DoW on us to pass through our borders is really freaking you out, eh?
    Methos:
    need to give our daughter a bath, but we can continue to discuss this later
    General_W:
    :) I love bathtime.
    Methos:
    so many toys
    General_W:
    I wish I'd had that many toys at that age!
    Methos:
    hehe, I agree
    General_W:
    ok - well have fun thanks for chatting.
    Methos:
    later
     
  11. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    I love the extra conversations. never edit them out!

    time to sink their WB.

    but at the very least trap it. another chat like that and we have enemies for the game.

    FYI here is what they are doing right now:

    Chatting as a team if they want us as game long enemies or not.

    Because if they give us no counter proposal that is what they have.

    PBEM spoiler:
    Spoiler :
    sounds vaugely fimilar to incan's offering the chinese, sulimen and romans techs and simply being "shut out"...but followed up with...we are still friends...:rolleyes:
     
  12. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,198
    Location:
    Washington State (GMT -8)
    @Memphus - you're exactly right.
    Except for your PBEM spoiler analogy...that's a completely different situation, of course! ;) :lol:

    Gracious - lucky for you I value team SANCTA far above my own empire in our private PBEM game! :D
     
  13. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    3,904
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Devil's Punchbowl
    TBH General you may be pushing a little too hard. I understand them not wanting to trade with us; we have nothing to offer that they can't already get from their current trade partner. We're not ready to take them on either so I see no advantage to telling them that they need to offer us a trade or we want nothing else to do with them. We are the ones that fell behind and have nothing to offer. We need to correct that, not vent on teams that have more techs, more contacts and more options.
     
  14. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    There was a lot of dancing there, all right.

    Is there a reason we haven't asked something like "do you want to trade with us? What is a reasonable trade?" I'm just wondering.

    PBEM Spoiler
    Spoiler :
    And, memphus - we ARE friends. kumbaya, memphus!! kumbaya!!
     
  15. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,198
    Location:
    Washington State (GMT -8)
    @AutoTeller- yeah, i've repeatedly pushed for them to make an offer or outline what they might consider to be "reasonable." I've not gotten anything back beyond stalling.

    But 1889 raises a good point - at this point we really need to do a gut check on what we want from the Cavs.
    As I said myself, I've pushed this as hard as I can without picking a fight. Now we need to decide if we want a fight - or if we want to take them at their word that at some time in the future they might actually be willing to trade with us.

    That's not quite accurate. We've made them several offers. We just don't have anything they seem to want - which seems odd. [see: Metal Casting]

    1st - the advantage is not letting them get the OB trade bonus and not letting them explore our territory. Both are meaningful "advantages" if we're not going to be friends.
    2nd - I haven't been beating them up for just not trading with us - but for not showing in initiative in trying to design or offer a trade. If they were at least trying to make a deal with us, I'd be way less upset. The thing that bothers/worries me is that they're just saying "no" to every idea we offer.
    It's not a good sign! If you really want to - you can always find a way to trade. But they're (apparently) not trying to find a way.
    You've got to ask yourself, what's motivating that behavior?
    The most logical explanation is that we're on the target list. Therefore, we should not aid them in trade or exploration.

    Again - we DO have things to offer, we're not that far behind just yet.
    I agree - we shouldn't vent on them.
    I wasn't trying to do that, but maybe I was pushing the line.
    I'll try to be more careful :)
     
  16. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    22,877
    Location:
    Melbourne, AUS Reputation:131^(9/2)
    We could just ignore them for a while. Give them the silent treatment if they don't want to talk.
     
  17. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    I've spent the day thinking about this tbh, trying to see a doveish way around this, and the problem is, I can't. Cavs don't want to trade with us, for whatever reason, and Kaz are just ignoring us.

    This is the problem that I see. Kaz have CoL, and Cavs haven't researched anything since monarchy, around 10+ turns ago. They are, together, going to CS, and that doesn't require anyone else in the trading agreement, although they may have given MS an offer where MS research maths, and Cavs save gold to deficit research CS later on, and MS are being tricked into participating without the benefit of CS. They are trying to keep the rest of us backwards, by not trading MS, or us, alphabet. This is one of the reasons I don't think that MS are (a knowing) part of a 3 team alliance; they simply got duped by Cavs into trading IW to them, and then Cavs gave it to Kaz. This also fits with the fued beeline earlier; they are cooperating together with a new plan after we foiled their old one, trying to outexpand us.

    I don't want this game to devolve straight into a 3v2, it's going to damage our growth if we have to be more careful about Kaz and Cavs, but the unfortunate problem is that we need to stop Cavs scouts now, and stop messing about with fancy tech beelines. We need to find Saturn, and get both them and MS into a full on alliance asap. We need to finish sailing, then go straight for alphabet. Ideally we can chat with MS and explain everything that we know, now that they have had time to sit on that email and ponder the implications for a bit (hopefully they have, but tbh I'm not that sure if they know what is going on, even though they have contact with Cavs). We need to tell them right now, asap, that we will trade them alphabet, MC the whole she-bang, for what they are researching and a tech embargo on Cavs/Kaz, and that we will both try to get Saturn in on the deal, when one of us finds them (so that even if one of us doesn't have contact, the tam in the middle can pass each others techs as tech broker). Saturn would be very happy with this deal, MS, that's teh team we need to convince, and we need to do it before they do anymore trades with Cavs and Kaz.
     
  18. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    yeah, but I think that SANCTA, Saturn and MS vs Cavs/Kaz is a strong combination, even if we start out behind.

    To be honest, I don't really understand why Cavs are being jerks - it's too early to start drawing hard lines. This is likely going to be a reasonably long game, especially since no one has a dominant early UU.
     
  19. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    Yeah, that's one of the reasons why what they are doing isn't that wise; they are turning us into their enemies, which is one of the problems that teams that are not use to the diplomacy aspect have (the core of Cavs are Smurkz, which is just a bunch of SGotM players who haven't played in demogames before). They're talented, but they do not appear to be used to the appearance of hard alliances.

    Their problem, if they aren't going to think out how to sabotage the alliances, then that gives us an opening (they need to start offering techs at a discount to the other teams, MS and Saturn, to keep them separated from us, and try to leave us in the dust, which is exactly what we need to do to bind them to us strongly before Cavs can turn them against us).
     
  20. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,198
    Location:
    Washington State (GMT -8)
    :agree:
    Excellent analysis Krill

    thanks for saving me all that typing :thumbsup: couldn't have put it better myself. I'm going to see if I can get Peter Grimes from Mad Scientists on the horn and start talking to him. We've got a good personal relationship from previous MTDGs.
     

Share This Page