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Cavalry promo 'Charge' is a bit weird?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Victoria, May 9, 2017.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have 2 cavalry units and I want to charge down 2 melee units with my charge promotion.

    One of the target units sees me coming and fortifies for +6 but my charge bonus vs Fortified is +10 so I am at +4 vs them.

    The other target was digging a shallow vegetable pit at the time and did not notice me. As they are not fortified I get no charge bonus versus them and so do not gain +4

    Is that a bit weird or is there something special about digging a shallow vegetable pit?
     
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  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Your horses were overcome by the smell of radishes and faltered in their attack.
     
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  3. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    It certainly jars the immersion. Is any correction going to throw things out worse though? And you're no worse off with the promotion compared to without...
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Think about the defender, they are better off not entrenching but rather sticking radishes in their pockets. You stroll around in front of the enemy hoping they will dig in to your benefit?

    Changing it to +6 will remove the fortify bonus and stop confusion with small peppery vegetables.
     
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  5. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I did say 'It certainly jars the immersion' :p I have no issue with that solution.
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have missed it, its must be post work blues.... do you jar radishes in NZ or something, I never saw one in New World.

    dammit eagle!... this thread is slipping away from any vague form of solid plane! I b;lame you!
     
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  7. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    What I find TRULY annoying is that pressing skip turn several times doesn't give you a fortification bonus, like in all previous civs. Sometimes I want a unit to remain somewhere for a while, but I don't want to forget about it. Would be nice if I get a fortification bonus then.
     
  8. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    Unit getting a promotion should be a rewarding moment followed by a strategic decision. Why is it none of these in Civ 6?
     
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  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yes, fortification and alerting is just crap. +6 is a big deal to not have. Just meh.
     
  10. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Actually, there is some logic in the fact you should not fortify vs an army that is just able to tear down your defenses. You become a static, concentrated target, ready to be hit. In these cases it may be better to be scattered and able to run/dodge in every direction*

    Whether the implementation in game is sensible or bot, thats another decision.

    *you should not fortify unles behind a wall of pikes readi to impale anyone who comes charging at you, of course**... > cannot remember now if fortified spears have additional strenght vs cavalry, do they?

    ** and even if the charge is too strong, situation is just M.A.D. : most cavalry lost due to impalement, most pikemen still dead under the weight of impaled cavalry
     
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  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Spears have the square promotion for double support bonus, nothing for fortification
     
  12. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Not a big fan of radishes...so I cannot comment :p
     
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  13. Lanthar

    Lanthar SPQR

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    I can see not giving a charge bonus to cavalry against infantry in a loose (not fortified) formation. Should be opposite for spears, if you're going to do that, though - give the cavalry a charge bonus when spears are not fortified, while giving them a charge bonus against fortified infantry.

    However, I always took Civilization 'fortify' as something similar to the Roman army forts - literally a fort built every night. Not loose or tight field formations. So, in this case, I don't think Cavalry should ever get a charge bonus against fortified anything - just against unfortified.

    And isn't New Zealand 'Old World'? Why don't they have radishes there? Most importantly...why was anyone looking for radishes in New Zealand? If I was in New Zealand, I would be looking for something real, like Meduseld.
     
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  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Are you being real?

    In ancient times it was real known that a wall of spears a horseman would just not hit.
    That is precisely why scythed chariots and cataphracts had horse head armour that stopped a horses forward vision.

    Even in napoleonic times the cavalry horses just refused to plough into a square but rather go around it

    And scattered foot running everywhere was a bane of of overconfident horsemen that would chop at these people all the way to an ambush.

    The wedge formation was an attempt to demoralise and scatter a line of foot so the could be beaten
     
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  15. oedali

    oedali King

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    They should change it so charge "negates" fortication bonus, instead of being +10
     
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  16. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well. The Maori have been here for 750 odd years...but from a Civ perspective that's not quite old world ;)
    I think you'll find either radishes or the other here lol
     
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  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The maoris certainly made the English feel like radishes at the battle of gate pa
     
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  18. Lanthar

    Lanthar SPQR

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    So...you're saying I can only find radishes or Meduseld in New Zealand? What kind of tourism economy is that?? Good thing I like Meduseld...
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It was awesome leaving wellington Airport last year and having all the Tolkien stuff in departures. felt a bit like the movie had become reality.
    I could not find any radishes in the departure lounge though... I guess its pretty hard to dig shallow pits there.
    Also you will always be able to find sandflies in New Zealand @Lanthar I think they were designed to keep New Zealand tourism for New Zealanders only.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  20. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    In certain sense yes.
    While everyone can charge, Heavy Cavalry has the speed + weight (+ sheer size of a mounted horsemen) to be succesful against an enemy that keeps formation (and that's the reason why pikes are the counter to the charge, as by planting the pike in the ground you effectively turn the force at wich the cavalry is charging against them).
    It will be diferent if we assume fortified units have built all-surrounding defenses (but then, virtually all cavalry units should go down to infantery values to attack them). Let's consider that's not the case (or that at least some parts of the pallisade can't stand the weight of the charge).

    You have a point in that a Heavy Cavalry charge is difficult to execute against a tight formation, and that's because the charge breaks up before impact (therefore, losing the force to strike the blow that can break the formation - and stomp the unfortunate ones in the point were the charge concentrats the atack). As you commented, to avoid this may require to blind the horses, - and to mantain a tight formation while galloping at high speeds, which is not an easy feat - and also avoiding the knights losing morale in the process. You are right this is not easy, and it will require training (and specific tack, etc.)

    So it may be right to consider not all Heavy Cavalry can perform a succesful charge, but only the ones trained and prepared for this... but that's the point of promotions, ¿isn't it? to declare what an experienced army is prepared for. Same could apply to other promotions that reflect formations or attack patterns (echelon, schiltron, tortoise, double envelope,...) that while performed correctly provide great advantage may also provide weaknesses if performed incorrectly.

    So take the extra strenght of the cavalry vs fortified as the moral impact of thinking: "we're keeping formation, they will break up"... "all is fine, they will break up"... "they seem near, but they will break up"... "DAMN!! they are not breaking up!!". (*gets hit by a ton of horse, armor and blunt weapon at a considerable speed*).
     
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