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Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    It certainly wasn't the pretext that the Wars of Religion heavily factored in the transformation from a more or less universal Europe with an HRE that actually deserved at least some parts of the name (long before Voltaire) to a continent with much stronger nation states, the idea of the nation itself was strongly influenced by the Reformation. And you can bet that this would not have happened if those wars had had a different outcome.

    The crusades were in part influenced by the fact that the diplomatic relationships between the European and the Middle Eastern nations, if you want to call it that, was pretty much non-existent. Another very important factor was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert that had occured shortly before. The Byzantine Empire seemed to be on the verge of collapse (in terms of C2C: They lost an important source of horses in Anatolia, and in this case the only horses capable to carrying the Cataphractes), and the Western nations hoped to help them out - originally - and of course to get something out of it for themselves. Had they succeeded, both the Western European nations and the Byzantine Empire could have benefited greatly. The pope hoped for two things in this complex: To gain safe access to the Holy Land for the pilgrims, and to regain influence in the Byzantine Empire, and not necessarily in that order.

    It is certainly not strictly about punishing people you consider to be guilty of something, and often times you prefer innocents. Besides, what do you mean by "racial slur"? We have had human sacrifices in many regions of the world, including Europe (the original tech quote about Druidism is very interesting in that regard). There is no connotation about different "races" when you say something about human sacrifice.

    "We" knew that being close to sick people could be a bad idea, but transmission via something like blankets is relatively new knowledge. In the middle of the 19th century (long after these times), the prevalent idea was that diseases were transmitted via foul air (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory).

    Just what time are we speaking about here? Considering that more than 90 % of the original Native population in North America died before 1620 (by diseases), I didn't think you were speaking about the 18th/19th century here. Had this not happened, the European settlers might not have fared any better than the Vikings.

    I'm not an American.

    I think the Black Plague itself is a likely possibility. That would certainly explain the high fatality rate, although this one was even worse (about 90 %) than the Black Plague in Europe (about 30 %).
     
  2. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Et tu, TB?

    Okay here's capital punishment. "Society" (by which I of course mean a tiny privileged minority far more criminal than those they condemn) decides that it cannot protect itself from these people without killing them.

    Human sacrifice of the unwilling was to thank a (monstrous) god for victory by donating some of the spoils to him (both sides considered people could be property so no difference there).

    In both cases, "society" decides it will benefit from the deaths of these people. Wrong decision? Probably. But I honestly don't believe it is wronger in either case.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    One is a religious motivation and usually more personal, an exchange of life-essence currency for favor. This is not necessarily a highly publicized act as it is for the favor of the one doing the sacrificing, or his often very private and limited organization, more public in ancient times perhaps.

    The other is a punishment and a threat to others to never ever do what this person has done to earn such a fate. Always as public as possible so as to spread far and wide the fear of challenging the laws that were broken.

    Often, the human sacrifice is secretive and would be considered highly deviant in the society it's taking place in, though again, in ancient times some cults that practiced it became widely accepted by the culture, but then even in those cases, it rarely had anything to do with what the people who were being sacrificed did to deserve the fate, though yes sometimes it was because they were slaves or rivals or had acted out in some way but that wasn't necessary at all. They might have even been selected because they had done everything right in life so far and were thus pure - such as virgins of age.

    Capital punishment is almost always an act reserved for the most heinous of crimes and decisions that can be made. It is a fate threatened to the public but earned by the choices of the individual coupled with an inability to avoid the promised response to those choices.

    I see them very differently. Perhaps the most telling difference is that committing human sacrifice in modern society is likely to earn you capital punishment.
     
  4. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Capital punishment is as barbaric now as it ever was, but I was (obviously:rolleyes:) comparing them in the context of the native American cultures who practiced it (human sacrifice) at the time they were being genocided. So no, not deviant or secretive.

    No-one deserves the fate, so that's a false and culturally-prejudiced distinction too. The US, in the most shameful, criminal and illegitimate of company, persists with the practice, but I'm not going to let anyone get away with claiming or implying that that justifies or ennobles it.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    While I can respect the overall point that life should perhaps be more valuable than to enable capital punishment in a society, I believe the chief distinguishment from any punishment and any act of cruelty is that the criminal is the one who chose to act in the manner that earned the PRE-scribed punishment. In otherwords, since the punishment was made openly and publicly known that it would be taken IF certain decisions were made by the individual and that it could be proven beyond all doubt that said decisions had been made by that individual, then it is now the fault of the individual making those decisions in light of this information and not an arbitrary cruelty being administered upon the individual. AKA, we know that capital punishment is likely to be issued to us if we kill other people so if we kill other people, we can fully expect that we will be suffering capital punishment once it's proven we did so. Therefore, it is OUR fault that we would suffer capital punishment, not the fault of the system that determined that capital punishment would be a potential fate.

    AKA, the system isn't to be blamed for what a criminal is sentenced to. What a criminal experiences is the result of his own choices and actions taken in knowledge that he would potentially experience the punishment he suffers for it.

    I don't necessarily agree that capital punishment is barbaric, personally. It is reserved for those who commit even more barbaric acts and is therefore in place to provide a protection (in the form of a deterrent) for the innocent against those those who would do even worse to those who did nothing to deserve it.

    If I didn't trust the court system to usually represent a fair and honest trial system, I'd completely agree with you otherwise. In otherwords, if I didn't believe that we hold it far more important to ensure that people were guilty of the crimes they stand accused of before meriting punishment for those crimes, then yeah, I'd say it isn't something that should be on the table for punishment. But generally speaking, I feel the rates of false guilt are very very low here. Yes, there are some and I think usually jurors should be more careful than they tend to be in general, but there's going to be some inaccuracies now and then. In the case of capital punishments, there are usually so many mandatory retrials leading up to the execution giving every effort to avoid the possibility of inaccuracy that some may actually be luckier to get such a sentence than a life in prison, which I do feel is a much worse fate anyhow.
     
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  6. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Prince

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    Is it just me, or does the AI go through the calendar too quickly on deity? Is that expected? I have had 2 games on deity, with the first to sedentism at approximately 38,000BCE and 33,000BCE.

    I'm guessing its the extra city, as they have twice as many cities as they normally would up to tribalism. That helps them snowball quickly. Should higher difficulties be like this, or should the extra ancestral band be replaced with some other handicap? Is there a config or xml file for editing difficulty handicaps? An extra starting city has a much larger effect in C2C than vanilla BTS.
     
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  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Part of it is the extra city, sure. But another part is that the AI is VERY good at selecting its way through the beginning of the tech tree with great optimization because it can keep up with all its production demands pretty well during that era and thus benefit from its priority to reach for tech boosts quickly, whereas later on there are some complexities it doesn't navigate quite as well as a player may. The simpler game is easier for the AI to exceed in.
     
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  8. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Enjoying a great game but noticed something odd.

    I built up a huge army to take out a city but my gold never seemed to be affected. The Treasury screen seemed to endlessness give me free units.

    I had well over 100 units without any budgetary impact in ancient era. I barely won the battle being left with only a handful of units but my gold was the same before and after.

    The maths didn't seem to add up.....sorry, I have no actual data but just wondering is there was an issue
     
  9. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    re: the above this was my treasury before most of my army got killed. Why the -97?

    • upload_2020-6-22_0-22-6.png
     
  10. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    upload_2020-6-22_0-25-20.png

    And post war unit cost has actually gone up?
     
  11. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Sorry if wrong thread
     
  12. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Yeah, there's an issue, the unit upkeep system from vanilla is crap, we really need to rewrite it entirely to get something decent that better fit the scale of C2C.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  14. Prscyse

    Prscyse Chieftain

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    Would it be crazy to suggest an option that lets you switch your unit's maintenance from gold to food?

    And another one that allows you to double or triple all unit's (own and computer's) movement?
     
  15. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Actually I think it is a traits issue. I'm using developing/complex traits and have "aggressive". This gives -1 gold per military unit.

    Isn't that effectively unlimited free military units?
     
  16. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    I mean I'm probably out of my depth here but shouldn't it work so that the -1 cancels out the normal +1 cost...? instead of putting in a negative cost...so in the example above instead of -97 it should be 0? whereas without the trait it would be +97....?
     
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  17. MattCA

    MattCA Warlord

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    Makes sense. Worth checkin out anyways.
    0 cost is unlimited free units. -97 your getting paid. ha
     
  18. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    @raxo2222 ,

    Hope you tested this even a little bit.
     
  19. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Yeah, I tested it by checking several saves.
    For prehistoric era it just takes bit longer to reach first level.
    As for later era saves it seemed to not do much difference: At most some cities may lose one or two highest education level.
    For well developed city its not that much difference.
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I proposed food upkeep on units about 10 yrs ago. It's something I'd still like to do, but not a switch from one to the other. Both.

    THAT seems a bit wild to me...
    It may be that the upkeep per unit may need to be min'd out to 0. And barring other influences, yes, it pretty much means that, which makes its also large number of free units given a bit of an overlap. I would think one thing this gives us is more workable room in civics to add +x gold to military units to make them more expensive as they get more advanced. That said, the unit design path is planning to inflict additional costs units currently don't experience so part of this intent is to blend with upcoming design adjustments so that only a few or truly prehistoric units become 'free' as a result of this ability. Still, they should never give MORE gold than less so establishing a minimum in the code that appears to have been overlooked may be needed here.

    Could also be that you're getting 'paid' based not on negative support costs from traits but on having no support costs and some units like animals still trying to offset assumed costs.
     

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