Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Currently you're not missing anything. There are, however, plans to eventually address this so that it does matter to gather more goods.
Hello,
(this is my first post on c2c, super thanks for this awesome game!! I play immortal/eons/34 civs and one game easily takes six months.)
One minor issue that I noticed today:
After downloading the svn yesterday I noticed that Ctrl-r (or clicking the show resources icon) does not show icons for resources anymore. I tried ctrl-shift-f12 for a screenshot, but that creates a black frozenscreen.tga file). I use Windows 7 on a Macbookpro to play, so I don't have a PrintScreen key. This game was started 6th of July with the svn of that day and migrated yesterday to the current svn.
One minor suggestion:
Would you consider switching to BCE/CE instead of BC/AD. BCE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era) is religion neutral, but I realize that the extra character in the top right corner can be less aesthetic.
Again, many thanks to all the people who put a lot of work in this!
(this is my first post on c2c, super thanks for this awesome game!! I play immortal/eons/34 civs and one game easily takes six months.)
One minor issue that I noticed today:
After downloading the svn yesterday I noticed that Ctrl-r (or clicking the show resources icon) does not show icons for resources anymore. I tried ctrl-shift-f12 for a screenshot, but that creates a black frozenscreen.tga file). I use Windows 7 on a Macbookpro to play, so I don't have a PrintScreen key. This game was started 6th of July with the svn of that day and migrated yesterday to the current svn.
One minor suggestion:
Would you consider switching to BCE/CE instead of BC/AD. BCE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era) is religion neutral, but I realize that the extra character in the top right corner can be less aesthetic.
Again, many thanks to all the people who put a lot of work in this!
Zoom out to globe view, likely resource selection is not selected on "everything"
Yes that was it!
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
That would be my primary objection, aside from the fact that I'm personally religion neutral but was still raised with BC/AD.
GreatLordofPie
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2009
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- 384
Unrelated but I just checked out your naval unit review spreadsheet and funnily enough, the upgrade trees pretty much coincide with how I'm categorizing ships in my modern mod (though I'm distinguishing between nuclear and diesel subs, and not between battleships and cruisers). Are you planning rock-paper-scissors style balancing for navies?
Also, perhaps an atompunk, nuclear battleship styled from the Kirov-class could fill the gap in the battleship line?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
There are some rock paper scissors stuff in there, though not super simplistic of course. I'm sure with evaluation you can even see its woven in. Battleships and cruisers are differing by class in part because they do have their own unique places in that arrangement.
I'm not aware of the Kirov-class but if you have some suggestion source material I'd be happy to look into it. Might be interesting if you're suggesting a ship that would be special that would fill the battleship gap during the post-nuclear age. Could make for a good atom punk addition.
I'll probably be working on including the naval into the land unit eval at some point soon when I'm done with the land unit evaluations. My original planning doc for the naval would be a little outdated now with so many new techs to consider late in the tree.
GreatLordofPie
Prince
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Of course, the huge scope of C2C requires nuance in its unit design.
Basically it's this big Russian missile cruiser built in the 80s for killing carrier groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirov-class_battlecruiser. So in terms of timeline, it fits perfectly. Plus there's a model for it https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/corrected-ships-from-redforce-sb.14760/.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
There's a lot of great models in that link! Thanks!
I would probably work a punk unit in a little later in the design process but I do see a good slot for it so that's cool thanks!
Further help with identifying unit model art for both the planned and not yet fulfilled land and sea units would be very helpful btw.
I would probably work a punk unit in a little later in the design process but I do see a good slot for it so that's cool thanks!
Further help with identifying unit model art for both the planned and not yet fulfilled land and sea units would be very helpful btw.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I believe, if I recall correctly, that the general overview of rock paper scissors on the late game ship types was:
Destroyers beat subs
Subs beat Battleships
Battleships beat Cruisers
Cruisers beat Destroyers
There's also a few other interactions of course and this is rather simplified.
Destroyers beat subs
Subs beat Battleships
Battleships beat Cruisers
Cruisers beat Destroyers
There's also a few other interactions of course and this is rather simplified.
Have you considered aircraft beating ships?
The battleship 'Bismark' was sunk by planes (crippled the steering propellers) as well as support ships.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah absolutely of course. It's part of what complicates the scene. Destroyers are good counters for aircraft, but perhaps the best counter is other flying units and you can get that mainly from carriers which are otherwise pretty vulnerable to other ships. Cruisers tend to carry the most missiles and early on they are the ships that tote along the seaplanes that take off and land from the water itself but are lofted by the cruisers in a similar manner to a lifeboat. Subs can be good at carrying missiles as well and are tending to be the most stealthy and when they can get the jump on other ships, it's not only battleships they can sink. There are also coastal ships that are good at carrying helicopters and defending in the shallows and right now choppers are unable to engage with ships based on the game rules but that will change. Still they are best at striking out at coastal targets. Fleets without Destroyers and/or stocked Carriers can be a bit of a sitting duck to air power attacks - IIRC Cruisers have a LITTLE interception but not much.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Yes there is as these type resources can (not always though) open up new building chains.
ermanay
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2014
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- 7
===HERESIES===
Periodically barbarians spawn a heretic unit that spreads the religion heresy, a religion that cannot be embraced and is wholly negative, to various cities. Once it uses its ability there is a 50% chance of failing, if it does manage to spread heresy successfully it is consumed. Heresy should cause unhappiness based on number of religions, religious buildings and population of the city. A city has population of 5 with 2 religions and 2 temples, 2 religions + 2 temples = 4 unhappiness and 1 more unhappiness from 1/3 of the population. If a city with heresy riots due to unhappiness there is a 50% chance the city will turn barbarian. Heresy can be removed by inquisitors or having enough happiness where they celebrate “we love the king” day or having law enforcement units 4 more from the population number on the same tile as the city. City has a population of 5, you need 9. Every turn there’s a 20% chance law enforcers shutting down heresy. If left for too long heresy can fire an event spawning barbarian units around the cities they have infected.
===DARK AGES===
If all of cities in an empire have more unhappy citizens than happy citizens and suffers for 6 turns an even called Dark Age fires it exacerbates the already dire situation. Random amount of cities lose 1 pop and production of wealth, production of unit and non-law enforcement buildings, science and culture plummets for 6 turns. However in this period of Dark Age all cities gain 4 happiness allowing the player to solve the unhappiness issue they had before, coming out of the Dark Age with a much more backwards but more stable empire.
===CITY EDICTS===
If a player decides to build tall and makes a bank they should be able to build city edicts. City edicts have astronomical maintenance but provide great boosts to specific parts of the city. For example science grants boosts science production or culture grant that boosts culture production. These edicts stays in the city for 5 turns, empire runs out of money or is manually demolished. If it is possible to program edicts can be toggled and shut.
===MERCENARIES===
Once an empire embraces a type of currency policy that isn’t bartering or other currency policies that aren’t currencies or have the military policy mercenaries they can access the mercenary tab to hire expensive but ready to go units. These bought units spawn in the capital city and can move the second they’re bought. The bought units have the mercenary trait which gives 1 unhappiness to the city they’re in, making them bad garrison units.
===PARTISANS===
If a city has more unhappy pops than happy pops there’s a 20% chance a partisan event firing up that spawns partisans equal to the amount of unhappy pops in the city. Partisans are invisible and have extra attack power against law units. If partisans take over a city it there's a 20% chance becomes a new civ and 60% chance they join barbarians. If the captured city used to belong to another civilization city joins back to their homeland, if homeland refuses it becomes barbarian city. Cities that already had a partisan event cannot have another one for 10 turns.
===GREAT PARTISAN===
Rather than spawning partisans partisan event spawns a Great Partisan. Great Partisan has the ability to spawn a partisan unit per turn. It is invisible, gives crime boost to cities around it and has great strength.
Periodically barbarians spawn a heretic unit that spreads the religion heresy, a religion that cannot be embraced and is wholly negative, to various cities. Once it uses its ability there is a 50% chance of failing, if it does manage to spread heresy successfully it is consumed. Heresy should cause unhappiness based on number of religions, religious buildings and population of the city. A city has population of 5 with 2 religions and 2 temples, 2 religions + 2 temples = 4 unhappiness and 1 more unhappiness from 1/3 of the population. If a city with heresy riots due to unhappiness there is a 50% chance the city will turn barbarian. Heresy can be removed by inquisitors or having enough happiness where they celebrate “we love the king” day or having law enforcement units 4 more from the population number on the same tile as the city. City has a population of 5, you need 9. Every turn there’s a 20% chance law enforcers shutting down heresy. If left for too long heresy can fire an event spawning barbarian units around the cities they have infected.
===DARK AGES===
If all of cities in an empire have more unhappy citizens than happy citizens and suffers for 6 turns an even called Dark Age fires it exacerbates the already dire situation. Random amount of cities lose 1 pop and production of wealth, production of unit and non-law enforcement buildings, science and culture plummets for 6 turns. However in this period of Dark Age all cities gain 4 happiness allowing the player to solve the unhappiness issue they had before, coming out of the Dark Age with a much more backwards but more stable empire.
===CITY EDICTS===
If a player decides to build tall and makes a bank they should be able to build city edicts. City edicts have astronomical maintenance but provide great boosts to specific parts of the city. For example science grants boosts science production or culture grant that boosts culture production. These edicts stays in the city for 5 turns, empire runs out of money or is manually demolished. If it is possible to program edicts can be toggled and shut.
===MERCENARIES===
Once an empire embraces a type of currency policy that isn’t bartering or other currency policies that aren’t currencies or have the military policy mercenaries they can access the mercenary tab to hire expensive but ready to go units. These bought units spawn in the capital city and can move the second they’re bought. The bought units have the mercenary trait which gives 1 unhappiness to the city they’re in, making them bad garrison units.
===PARTISANS===
If a city has more unhappy pops than happy pops there’s a 20% chance a partisan event firing up that spawns partisans equal to the amount of unhappy pops in the city. Partisans are invisible and have extra attack power against law units. If partisans take over a city it there's a 20% chance becomes a new civ and 60% chance they join barbarians. If the captured city used to belong to another civilization city joins back to their homeland, if homeland refuses it becomes barbarian city. Cities that already had a partisan event cannot have another one for 10 turns.
===GREAT PARTISAN===
Rather than spawning partisans partisan event spawns a Great Partisan. Great Partisan has the ability to spawn a partisan unit per turn. It is invisible, gives crime boost to cities around it and has great strength.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I like the idea and can see some ways it could be boiled into a more generic system. Overall that's my main feedback on much of this is the ultra specific rulesets being suggested. However, there are a lot of gemstones to be mined here and its the sort of thing I would relate to a later stage Ideas Project sort of implementation similar to criminal spawns. I do still want to do cults - negative religions - at some point as well, along with the long ago proposed concept of 'dark' GPs. This sort of thing would certainly be an interactive concept to consider for that too.
Afforess played around with this concept and found that many objected to it once in play. I think it still has a place somehow... eventually.
Far as I know an Edict is by definition a policy declaration. We kinda have some local policy decisions that judges/lawyers and GPs can make. However, this seems to be pointing at a temporary investment project for the city... is that correct?
We have draft actions but I kinda like this concept - something we can look to build into later though we've also talked about hiring barbs as mercenaries through diplomat units.
So we do have Partisan defenders when cities get taken but this would be another 'Rev' style concept implementation. We need to sort Rev out a bit before doing anything along these lines I think, and the Ideas Project has an aspect of that I intend to develop into eventually as well. I'll keep this sort of native enemy spawn concept in mind with it - we have been talking about something similar through the entire line of Ruffians, or at least that was the way I was considering implementing it. I'm not 100% sure that happiness is the best way to go as an operative trigger here but the concept as a general whole is a good idea.
When I proposed the negative Great People project I had not considered negative Great Military People... perhaps there is room for that sort of thing as well in a related project.
ermanay
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2014
- Messages
- 7
Cults would definitely be better, my suggestion was one that, at least I think, was a bit more generic and easier to implement. Its rules are specific but that's because I didn't want heresies to be easy-to-get-rid-of nuisances or hair ripping annoyances. If there are multiple ways to get rid of a heresy that also gives players multiple ways of approaching the problem. Like the happiness gets rid of the heresy part is to ensure more secular or tolerant empires aren't stuck with infected cities and can get rid of them without going Spanish inquisition mode.
The issue is the game can become really stagnant around the middle ages a good crisis would be a nice idea to force the player out of their comfort zone and change the way they play. No more sit back and let auto turn go forward like a clock, if you don't pay attention your empire should reflect that. Actually, besides the dark ages, there can be other crises that could affect an empire. Perhaps a barbarian invasion that you first get a warning event then perhaps after 5 turns or so a barbarian stack spawns on the edge of your border or a wave of unrest due to government mismanagement basically something to jolt the player. Also if possible it'd be nice if these crises had different colored event windows rather than blue window so the player won't accidentally click to pass it away without reading it and will pay attention to them.
Sort of. It's a way to encourage players to play tall, giving them boosts in one city so they're not left behind of everything and can still be a superpower with a single or two or just very small about of cities. Yes, they can be temporary but if it is possible to program it can also be toggled. For example, you click a city and toggle "Science Grant" that gives a huge boost to science, and then you have to pay an astronomical maintenance, cost of which is tied to the number of your cities, to maintain it.
Forgot to mention the reason why mercenaries bring unhappiness to the city they're in is that they make bad guests.
Throughout history, these rebels, partisans, armed groups have risen up when they are not happy with the way things are, which is why I proposed that unhappiness should trigger them. After all, as long as people have bread and circuses they don't have the motivation to rebel. That or they're not a nation under occupation. Captured cities are usually unhappy and nationalist/patriotic partisans rising up would give the steamroller a problem they need to deal with before assaulting the next city. In my playthrough after capturing a city, I would just leave behind a single unit and go my merry yet destructive way. If the city I captured had spawned a number of partisans that could recapture the city it would make me be a bit more cautious with my conquests and force me to plan for future or immediate counter-partisan fighting. Oh, right also I was speaking a system outside of rev, something that could be in-game until rev is fully implemented (kinda heard it messes up the game and the AI) then either merged or left apart so people can make their choice.
I forgot to mention Great Partisan should be a rare spawn, not every city that's up and arms should spawn Che Guevara that wrecks your infrastructure, stray units and if not careful cities. Maybe a 10% chance? Rather spawning groups of partisans it spawns a single Great Partisan who then itself spawns partisans from its a location somewhere on a mountain, in a forest or right in the smack dab of your empire. And speaking of negative great military people a great criminal would also work nicely. A city that's essentially Gotham and Detroit rolled into one could spawn a great criminal. Also I want to add here another idea I forgot to post:
===UNIQUE MID-LATE GAME BARBARIAN UNITS===
Fundamentalists that could spawn in intolerant yes religion-wise very diverse empires, deserters that could spawn when units retreat, arsonists and rabble that could spawn around unhappy cities, gangsters that could spawn around criminal cities, bioterrorists that could spawn when a modern city is unhappy or perhaps as the result of a cult, rogue robots, soccer moms, hashashins, nomad tribes, crazy flagellants et cetera et cetera. Something to add more flavor to the game, to spice it up.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You can always look at the message log.
It would be a little challenging to implement for the AI and also there is some space constraints on the city page since we already do have a lot going on there. It's hoped that the Win For Losing option can encourage tall play over wide as well. It's an interesting idea though.
Sounds like that would mean they spread crime...
And largely that's what ruffian units are, though we only have them manifesting as those loyal to the nation that trains them - perhaps more similar to mercenaries.
I like the explanation as to how it would play in to demand a bit better standard defenses - that certainly would be a good reason for something along these lines. I'm kinda thinking it is similar to the criminal spawn mechanism and DH and I spoke of adapting that mechanism to a similar one for spawning ruffians around cities when crime got high. Yes, you can say that they rise up when not happy with the way things are, but the second trigger condition is that they feel rebellious enough and with high enough morale to think they can challenge the law and the government to get away with it, thus, exactly what high crime represents. We also have a plan to make excess unhappiness add to crime directly as well so one hand feeds the other a bit on that subject, therefore high crime levels would be a trigger that matches the concept. Right now when a criminal spawns they spawn within the city - if I adapted the code a notch I could make it possible for ruffian units to spawn through the same system and when they do, because they don't have the ability to blend into cities like criminals do, they could be placed just outside the city when they spawn, or in the least 'improved' plot within the city radius (or favoring a forest or whatever).
This would make it much easier to implement. When I do get around to advancing crime stuff further, I can put some focus on this.
There are fanatic units that would go well with this. I'd have to think a bit on how to best identify such a religious situation. I'm thinking something along the lines of a situation presented once the Ideas Project is further fulfilled.
ermanay
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2014
- Messages
- 7
Eeehh yes that is true they should also spread crime but unhappiness comes from how... ruff and immoral they are. People just don't like to see them rampaging through their city chasing after women, robbing clerks, etc.
I agree crime should spawn criminal units around the cities with high crime rates, that's an excellent idea but crime shouldn't affect if patriots rise up against a foreign invader or angry people rise up for whatever. I mean Polish people didn't start a guerilla fight against Germany because they were peeved about crime rates and Americans didn't started war of independence against the UK because there was a wave of crime across Columbia, both rebelled it was because they were unhappy with the situation. Polish rebelled because they were occupied and Americans rebelled because they were really unhappy. Also by an unhappy city, I don't just mean a city that has 1 or 2 angry citizens, I mean the majority of citizens in the city are unhappy. In a city of 6 if 4 are angry that should be enough to embolden the angry folk and lead them to the arm themselves. However, a high amount of crime coupled with majority unhappiness should make the problem a lot worse. Oh, also unhappiness affecting crime is a great idea. Angry people usually don't say calm, they make life harder for everyone which makes more angry people, and when the angry people in the city becomes the majority it should lead to spawning partisans. So my idea is a crime isn't the direct reason for an uprising but a way the uprising can happen.
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