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Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Not at all, I just pointed out that roads everywhere is not strictly needed to protect against criminals effectively, and especially so if criminals lose the ignore terrain cost to movement ability.
    It's not about the looks, it's about the lack of strategical aspect to routes in the game, having the best type of route available on all plots on the map is almost the same as having no routes in the game at all imo.
    There should be reasons to build different kind of routes at the same time, or none at all, a decision, rather than just place the best route on every single plot as that's the only reasonable thing to do.
    Not placing a route somewhere should be a viable option. A route should imo hold greater significance in the game than it currently does, I think gameplay would be more interesting if it did.
    It would make it more important to protect routes from pillaging, or to pillage routes yourself, as there's not always 100 redundant routes that protect the route network from being severed.
    I think forts and watchtowers would hold greater significance with less roads around too.

    Anyhow it's just an idea that's being brainstormed, I'm not sure it would be worth the effort in the end, adn I don't intend to work on it unless the team finds it a good idea either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Exactly why they have it - it's too hard to get criminals into the city if they don't have this ability. Plus, criminals are usually very skilled at hiding out in the wild when the need suits them and the need would often suit them. Slipping through wild lands is a common and familiar experience and anywhere they can find shadows and places to blend in is a place they take solace in, so they get good at moving about on their own in nature. They do hide pretty well in town improvements as well of course.

    I've thought on this subject and bounced the debate around and the two sides of my mind usually have all these arguments presented. In RL, you don't usually have roads stretching out from every location to every wild place within the nation. Even in the US today there are places with minimal access, and places where logging dirt roads only go WHEN people need to use them and are cut off when they aren't in use.

    Certainly you don't have highways and railways coating everywhere either.

    So then I have to think, well... why?

    And in RL, the reason is roads are costly to build and even costlier to maintain, both even moreso the more advanced the route tends to be. Therefore, yes, we usually only connect major city to major city with rail, in the US we started with a few East to West lines alone, and so on.

    IIRC, routes don't automatically obsolete each other do they? If they do you're on a BUG setting to hide previous types and that messes up tunnels and railroads?

    Anyhow, here's my point, IF we wanted to do something in regards to this that helps to match a more real-world approach, give every road type an upkeep cost. Already has a build cost and definitely keep that but an upkeep cost that somewhat increases with each type could limit how much you'd want to route out. This is again a fairly major RL gov budget expense and perhaps distance to capital or num city kinda covers it but it really doesn't in a lot of ways because those don't take a direct measure of how many sq miles of routes you have to maintain or vary by type so I like to think of them as the cost of moving materials and men and resources and so on.

    However, if we did that, it should be clearly displayed in the gold advisor how much is coming from routes, in the plot hover how much your route is costing you, and we need the ability to somehow turn off support for routes we don't want to continue to maintain and a decay factor once maintenance on a plot is shut off, plus perhaps the ability to simply send a worker in to downgrade a route.

    One of Hydro's goals was to make Civ feel a bit closer to Sim City and I distinctly remember that maintaining roads was a major budget consideration. The upkeep concept and gradual decay when not upkept is, I think, inspired by some of those game experiences.

    All combined it could even be somewhat a strategic move to craft fast approaches to town so that you can place defenses along them and so on and with some of the unit abilities coming that could play quite interestingly as some units will gain combat benefits for being on routes so where you choose to abandon routes can be for specific purposes as well. Some traps may require particular route of minimal quality or non-route status as well.

    Other factors - some improvements could require a certain level of routing at minimum to upgrade to - towns for example, may require better routes to reach better versions.

    I'm not inclined to work on that at the moment since I am involved in the design war on the same front I've been fighting for months now, but I'd support this sort of initiative. As with many projects, I also feel if done it should probably be optional - HOWEVER, it would mean that there would be greater gold challenge with the option on than off so would introduce a balance issue that would need to be considered somehow. Furthermore, I would warn that the very observation of frustration that started this discussion would be the most difficult part of implementing it - adapting the worker AI for if this option is on so that it knows to route more based on need than just ability.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    There are a few major religions that, if DH does not return, will get included still for sure, and many have been proposed. I have been thinking of waiting until the Ideas Project is implemented before adding much more because the Ideas Project would enable the game to have a lot more religions without them overwhelming the game balance as religious hoarding is a thing that can cause quite a bit of steamroll effect. Yes, we have the Religious Disabling option and it can work to help to limit that effect, but even then if you have certain traits/civics you can still gain access to all religious benefits you've been able to collect everywhere so with each religion included we continue to tilt balance a bit towards strongly favoring the religion hoarding strategies vs other ways to approach the subject - like singular religious devotion and non-religious. The Ideas Project would make religious influences compete in each city for a peace of the pie of the faith of the people there. It would, along with cultures, languages, possibly political ideologies and so on, make religions have to fight one another for influence % and only past a certain threshold, like 20% perhaps, would temples function and be constructable, past a certain threshold would monasteries function and be constructable and so on. New units trained would carry their influences and wherever they are stationed would diffuse those beliefs out into the place they are and the place they are would diffuse their beliefs into the units as well and so on. In this way, you could have an endless number of religions all vying for the light of day where they would be able to have strong influence - somewhere, and would make it perhaps unwise to try to make one holy city with many religions because they would be fighting each other for influence right where they should be the strongest.

    Of course, the Ideas project would be optional but we may have to limit the amount of cultures and religions and such in the game if the option isn't on because it will be designed to keep one from having too much benefit from hoarding many of these things into your nation.
     
  4. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Is there any point in trading for resources like candy? What I mean is as far as I can see the happiness bonus comes from the Candy Shop rather than the resource.
    .. Or am I missing something?
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Currently you're not missing anything. There are, however, plans to eventually address this so that it does matter to gather more goods.
     
  6. cobbaut

    cobbaut Chieftain

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    Hello,

    (this is my first post on c2c, super thanks for this awesome game!! I play immortal/eons/34 civs and one game easily takes six months.)

    One minor issue that I noticed today:
    After downloading the svn yesterday I noticed that Ctrl-r (or clicking the show resources icon) does not show icons for resources anymore. I tried ctrl-shift-f12 for a screenshot, but that creates a black frozenscreen.tga file). I use Windows 7 on a Macbookpro to play, so I don't have a PrintScreen key. This game was started 6th of July with the svn of that day and migrated yesterday to the current svn.

    One minor suggestion:
    Would you consider switching to BCE/CE instead of BC/AD. BCE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era) is religion neutral, but I realize that the extra character in the top right corner can be less aesthetic.

    Again, many thanks to all the people who put a lot of work in this!
     
  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Zoom out to globe view, likely resource selection is not selected on "everything"
     
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  8. cobbaut

    cobbaut Chieftain

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    Yes that was it!
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    That would be my primary objection, aside from the fact that I'm personally religion neutral but was still raised with BC/AD.
     
  10. GreatLordofPie

    GreatLordofPie Warlord

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    Unrelated but I just checked out your naval unit review spreadsheet and funnily enough, the upgrade trees pretty much coincide with how I'm categorizing ships in my modern mod (though I'm distinguishing between nuclear and diesel subs, and not between battleships and cruisers). Are you planning rock-paper-scissors style balancing for navies?
    Also, perhaps an atompunk, nuclear battleship styled from the Kirov-class could fill the gap in the battleship line?
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    There are some rock paper scissors stuff in there, though not super simplistic of course. I'm sure with evaluation you can even see its woven in. Battleships and cruisers are differing by class in part because they do have their own unique places in that arrangement.
    I'm not aware of the Kirov-class but if you have some suggestion source material I'd be happy to look into it. Might be interesting if you're suggesting a ship that would be special that would fill the battleship gap during the post-nuclear age. Could make for a good atom punk addition.

    I'll probably be working on including the naval into the land unit eval at some point soon when I'm done with the land unit evaluations. My original planning doc for the naval would be a little outdated now with so many new techs to consider late in the tree.
     
  12. GreatLordofPie

    GreatLordofPie Warlord

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    Of course, the huge scope of C2C requires nuance in its unit design.

    Basically it's this big Russian missile cruiser built in the 80s for killing carrier groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirov-class_battlecruiser. So in terms of timeline, it fits perfectly. Plus there's a model for it https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/corrected-ships-from-redforce-sb.14760/.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    There's a lot of great models in that link! Thanks!

    I would probably work a punk unit in a little later in the design process but I do see a good slot for it so that's cool thanks!

    Further help with identifying unit model art for both the planned and not yet fulfilled land and sea units would be very helpful btw.
     
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  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I believe, if I recall correctly, that the general overview of rock paper scissors on the late game ship types was:
    Destroyers beat subs
    Subs beat Battleships
    Battleships beat Cruisers
    Cruisers beat Destroyers

    There's also a few other interactions of course and this is rather simplified.
     
  15. Harrier

    Harrier Deity

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    Have you considered aircraft beating ships?

    The battleship 'Bismark' was sunk by planes (crippled the steering propellers) as well as support ships.
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Yeah absolutely of course. It's part of what complicates the scene. Destroyers are good counters for aircraft, but perhaps the best counter is other flying units and you can get that mainly from carriers which are otherwise pretty vulnerable to other ships. Cruisers tend to carry the most missiles and early on they are the ships that tote along the seaplanes that take off and land from the water itself but are lofted by the cruisers in a similar manner to a lifeboat. Subs can be good at carrying missiles as well and are tending to be the most stealthy and when they can get the jump on other ships, it's not only battleships they can sink. There are also coastal ships that are good at carrying helicopters and defending in the shallows and right now choppers are unable to engage with ships based on the game rules but that will change. Still they are best at striking out at coastal targets. Fleets without Destroyers and/or stocked Carriers can be a bit of a sitting duck to air power attacks - IIRC Cruisers have a LITTLE interception but not much.
     
  17. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes there is as these type resources can (not always though) open up new building chains.
     
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  18. ermanay

    ermanay Chieftain

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    ===HERESIES===
    Periodically barbarians spawn a heretic unit that spreads the religion heresy, a religion that cannot be embraced and is wholly negative, to various cities. Once it uses its ability there is a 50% chance of failing, if it does manage to spread heresy successfully it is consumed. Heresy should cause unhappiness based on number of religions, religious buildings and population of the city. A city has population of 5 with 2 religions and 2 temples, 2 religions + 2 temples = 4 unhappiness and 1 more unhappiness from 1/3 of the population. If a city with heresy riots due to unhappiness there is a 50% chance the city will turn barbarian. Heresy can be removed by inquisitors or having enough happiness where they celebrate “we love the king” day or having law enforcement units 4 more from the population number on the same tile as the city. City has a population of 5, you need 9. Every turn there’s a 20% chance law enforcers shutting down heresy. If left for too long heresy can fire an event spawning barbarian units around the cities they have infected.
    ===DARK AGES===
    If all of cities in an empire have more unhappy citizens than happy citizens and suffers for 6 turns an even called Dark Age fires it exacerbates the already dire situation. Random amount of cities lose 1 pop and production of wealth, production of unit and non-law enforcement buildings, science and culture plummets for 6 turns. However in this period of Dark Age all cities gain 4 happiness allowing the player to solve the unhappiness issue they had before, coming out of the Dark Age with a much more backwards but more stable empire.
    ===CITY EDICTS===
    If a player decides to build tall and makes a bank they should be able to build city edicts. City edicts have astronomical maintenance but provide great boosts to specific parts of the city. For example science grants boosts science production or culture grant that boosts culture production. These edicts stays in the city for 5 turns, empire runs out of money or is manually demolished. If it is possible to program edicts can be toggled and shut.
    ===MERCENARIES===
    Once an empire embraces a type of currency policy that isn’t bartering or other currency policies that aren’t currencies or have the military policy mercenaries they can access the mercenary tab to hire expensive but ready to go units. These bought units spawn in the capital city and can move the second they’re bought. The bought units have the mercenary trait which gives 1 unhappiness to the city they’re in, making them bad garrison units.
    ===PARTISANS===
    If a city has more unhappy pops than happy pops there’s a 20% chance a partisan event firing up that spawns partisans equal to the amount of unhappy pops in the city. Partisans are invisible and have extra attack power against law units. If partisans take over a city it there's a 20% chance becomes a new civ and 60% chance they join barbarians. If the captured city used to belong to another civilization city joins back to their homeland, if homeland refuses it becomes barbarian city. Cities that already had a partisan event cannot have another one for 10 turns.
    ===GREAT PARTISAN===
    Rather than spawning partisans partisan event spawns a Great Partisan. Great Partisan has the ability to spawn a partisan unit per turn. It is invisible, gives crime boost to cities around it and has great strength.
     
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  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I like the idea and can see some ways it could be boiled into a more generic system. Overall that's my main feedback on much of this is the ultra specific rulesets being suggested. However, there are a lot of gemstones to be mined here and its the sort of thing I would relate to a later stage Ideas Project sort of implementation similar to criminal spawns. I do still want to do cults - negative religions - at some point as well, along with the long ago proposed concept of 'dark' GPs. This sort of thing would certainly be an interactive concept to consider for that too.

    Afforess played around with this concept and found that many objected to it once in play. I think it still has a place somehow... eventually.

    Far as I know an Edict is by definition a policy declaration. We kinda have some local policy decisions that judges/lawyers and GPs can make. However, this seems to be pointing at a temporary investment project for the city... is that correct?

    We have draft actions but I kinda like this concept - something we can look to build into later though we've also talked about hiring barbs as mercenaries through diplomat units.

    So we do have Partisan defenders when cities get taken but this would be another 'Rev' style concept implementation. We need to sort Rev out a bit before doing anything along these lines I think, and the Ideas Project has an aspect of that I intend to develop into eventually as well. I'll keep this sort of native enemy spawn concept in mind with it - we have been talking about something similar through the entire line of Ruffians, or at least that was the way I was considering implementing it. I'm not 100% sure that happiness is the best way to go as an operative trigger here but the concept as a general whole is a good idea.

    When I proposed the negative Great People project I had not considered negative Great Military People... perhaps there is room for that sort of thing as well in a related project.
     
  20. ermanay

    ermanay Chieftain

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    Cults would definitely be better, my suggestion was one that, at least I think, was a bit more generic and easier to implement. Its rules are specific but that's because I didn't want heresies to be easy-to-get-rid-of nuisances or hair ripping annoyances. If there are multiple ways to get rid of a heresy that also gives players multiple ways of approaching the problem. Like the happiness gets rid of the heresy part is to ensure more secular or tolerant empires aren't stuck with infected cities and can get rid of them without going Spanish inquisition mode.
    The issue is the game can become really stagnant around the middle ages a good crisis would be a nice idea to force the player out of their comfort zone and change the way they play. No more sit back and let auto turn go forward like a clock, if you don't pay attention your empire should reflect that. Actually, besides the dark ages, there can be other crises that could affect an empire. Perhaps a barbarian invasion that you first get a warning event then perhaps after 5 turns or so a barbarian stack spawns on the edge of your border or a wave of unrest due to government mismanagement basically something to jolt the player. Also if possible it'd be nice if these crises had different colored event windows rather than blue window so the player won't accidentally click to pass it away without reading it and will pay attention to them.
    Sort of. It's a way to encourage players to play tall, giving them boosts in one city so they're not left behind of everything and can still be a superpower with a single or two or just very small about of cities. Yes, they can be temporary but if it is possible to program it can also be toggled. For example, you click a city and toggle "Science Grant" that gives a huge boost to science, and then you have to pay an astronomical maintenance, cost of which is tied to the number of your cities, to maintain it.
    Forgot to mention the reason why mercenaries bring unhappiness to the city they're in is that they make bad guests.
    Throughout history, these rebels, partisans, armed groups have risen up when they are not happy with the way things are, which is why I proposed that unhappiness should trigger them. After all, as long as people have bread and circuses they don't have the motivation to rebel. That or they're not a nation under occupation. Captured cities are usually unhappy and nationalist/patriotic partisans rising up would give the steamroller a problem they need to deal with before assaulting the next city. In my playthrough after capturing a city, I would just leave behind a single unit and go my merry yet destructive way. If the city I captured had spawned a number of partisans that could recapture the city it would make me be a bit more cautious with my conquests and force me to plan for future or immediate counter-partisan fighting. Oh, right also I was speaking a system outside of rev, something that could be in-game until rev is fully implemented (kinda heard it messes up the game and the AI) then either merged or left apart so people can make their choice.
    I forgot to mention Great Partisan should be a rare spawn, not every city that's up and arms should spawn Che Guevara that wrecks your infrastructure, stray units and if not careful cities. Maybe a 10% chance? Rather spawning groups of partisans it spawns a single Great Partisan who then itself spawns partisans from its a location somewhere on a mountain, in a forest or right in the smack dab of your empire. And speaking of negative great military people a great criminal would also work nicely. A city that's essentially Gotham and Detroit rolled into one could spawn a great criminal. Also I want to add here another idea I forgot to post:

    ===UNIQUE MID-LATE GAME BARBARIAN UNITS===
    Fundamentalists that could spawn in intolerant yes religion-wise very diverse empires, deserters that could spawn when units retreat, arsonists and rabble that could spawn around unhappy cities, gangsters that could spawn around criminal cities, bioterrorists that could spawn when a modern city is unhappy or perhaps as the result of a cult, rogue robots, soccer moms, hashashins, nomad tribes, crazy flagellants et cetera et cetera. Something to add more flavor to the game, to spice it up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020

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