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Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Geez the list of changes is Huge. Imo the biggest and best change was that we had a bonafide C++ Game programmer, username billw, that came in overhauled much of our coding with Major optimizations. He also got us to move to Git. (We still maintain the SVN too). This in turn brought in several other C++ coders like MattCA who is still optimizing. End of Turn waits (EoT) and late game EoT's are greatly shortened and reduced. He also strengthened the AI in many areas. There is even a Discord channel for C2C.

    Areas of changes of the top of my head:
    Tech tree, Civics, Culture, Game set up options, Map script optimizations and enhancements. AI interactions in relation to each other and to player. I know I'm forgetting many more. Perhaps Toffer90 or raxo2222 may chime in as they are much more involved in the coding and xml overhauls that went on since v38.

    And Welcome back! :)
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  3. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Ligtningfast pedia access and usage, on v38 I think opening the pedia could take as much as 30 seconds, now its less than 1 second.
    Pedia is UI, and almost all UI have gotten a big optimization so that selecting units in big units stack is faster, and switching between city screens is faster. This means there's much less micro-stuttering when playing around on the map.
    In addition to general UI optimizations there's also a lot of UI improvements (e.g. more user-friendly and better looking).

    Forests grow from young→normal→ancient and can burn down at any one of these stages and become burn forest which again can either disappear or become a young forest again, there are no pop ups when these things happens,but a burning forest have visual fire effect and 3D sound and will give a message in the log if it damages your units or happens within the range of one of your cities.

    There's really a lot of changes since v38, much more than what I and Joe mentioned here.
     
  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I did some fixes to space content, a lot of cleanup, and some smaller fixes.
    There were some savebreaking fixes on latest SVN too including ones that makes xml modding easier (I think only buildings and unit related stuff may have different displayed and defined name).
    That is tech "x" is TECH_X, but building "abc" may be BUILDING_A
     
  5. ranagrande

    ranagrande Chieftain

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    Are there any plans to add future religions? It doesn't really make sense not to have any new ones in the whole second half of the tech tree.
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Yes. But there are also plans that may change how religions operate a little so that the game can manage having more of them defined without throwing off economic balances too much.
     
  7. ranagrande

    ranagrande Chieftain

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    Awesome. I look forward to seeing them.
     
  8. philipschall

    philipschall Warlord

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    I know this is kinda a blunt force method, but as far as curbing gold goes, I just ran an autoplay game for 2000 turns on Marathon with the latest SVN including Joseph's civics tweaks. I was playing on Marathon, and the only change I made was setting Inflation at 35 with onset at turn 400. The AI wasn't making obscene amounts of gold, everyone was kinda financially on the knife's edge and not everyone was running 100% funding of stuff.

    I know inflation sucks as a mechanic, but in the same way that food waste curbs the insane amount of food in this game, inflation is a way to curb the insane amount of gold in this game. It was in the base game for a reason. I'd be for adding it back in until the civics and unit maintenance overhaul gets sorted out.
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    May be the way to go - there probably should be some
     
  10. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I'm curious did you happen to run an autoplay Before your Inflation addition? Would've loved to see a save game from the beginning of the Later Eras. Or into the middle of the Late Eras.
     
  11. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Was just wondering, what would cause yr capital to go down 10 pop, and cause also for the Wonders to lose 1/2 of them, plus 1/3 of the buildings?? pop was 55 then down 2, 44??

    Did a restart and it wasnt there after that. . .all was fine>>>
     
  12. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Nuclear power plant explosion (yes they are built in middle of city).
    Or someone dropped nuke on you.
    That is if you or other AIs reached latter part of Atomic era.
     
  13. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I always play withOUT nuclear weapons etc. . .
     
  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    No nukes only disables nuclear weapons.
    To disable nuclear meltdowns you need to turn off bad karma module.
    You can turn it off in MLF file in modules.
     
    strategyonly likes this.
  15. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    After a long break I gave this mod another go!
    I played two games, in the first one I played on a world map with 7 civs, and I used Hotseat to play three of them.
    Immortal difficulty, Marathon Speed, developing leaders, complex traits. I played until end of Medieval so far.
    The other game was on raxos "It's small world" on deity, marathon speed, also complex traits and developing leaders. I know this map with all the resources and other things is not "realistic", but I think my observations are not strictly related to it and quite representative.
    In the Latter game I have: Creative, Industrial, Philosophic, Financial, Innovative, Pacifist and Timid, all on Level 1.
    Please note that I play on Version 40.1.2611 build 219 with no chance to update right now.


    Civics.
    As I said before, I am somewhat unhappy with the current ones. They are just a ladder, and the only real decision point is WHEN to change, rather than if changing itself makes sense.
    For example, Vassalage is better than Pacifism, EVEN if you play highly peacefully - like being alone on a continent.
    State Church also gives higher military production bonus, compared to Inquisitorial. And while Inquisitorial gives less science than the others available, it still is not as big a hit as you would think it should have, based on the real world inquisition.
    In short, Civics lack their specific flavour. One guy working on the civics long long ago used this design philosophy, which I liked a lot: The first two civics of each set were just "ladder", so a clear improvement from the previous civic. After that, new civics were fulfilling a niche.
    Maybe Monarchy is very good for large, expanding empires ("wide" empires), but makes "tall" empires (few cities with lots of population) disadvantage. Republic might give huge benefits to culture and science, but costs a lot of gold. Despotism might give a penalty to Research, but helps reducing crime. Just as examples. City states reduced the costs for number of cities a lot, while also giving less gold income. Pacifism boosted great people, while severely reducing military production. You get the idea.

    Update: Playing further (WW1 now), I noticed that newer Civics are generally not worth it, often strictly worse than previsous ones. When Switching from Guilds to Regulated (Economic Civics), I went from +60k to +2k and have no idea why.
    What I really like is that while some later civics are a tad better than the previous ones, I kept the previous ones because of the building (like Squatter Camps), until the Building obsoletes before switching. This is a really nice design / strategic element; please keep it!

    UI
    Absolutely love the faster Pedia! Now I use it much more often!
    A few things on my wish list would be:
    - Make the domestic advisor a bit more useful. Some icons are not visible at all, and for hammers above 3 digits, you can't really see them.
    - A way to toggle owned plots (in city radius), that are not improved yet
    - A way to show only resources, that are within your territory, but not connected yet
    - Creating a custom "ban" and "preferred" building list for cities. Some buildings, you really only build once (like most factories), and some players avoid certain buildings altogether. Preferred buildings would be key buildings, that are sometimes within a long building chain. Yes, you can make build lists and save them, but sometimes you just want to have a list with all buildings that your city builds first.

    Happiness and Healthiness
    I play with city limits on, which give the earlier civics a :( malus if you have more cities than they "allow". I freaking love this mechanic; it makes the earlier game a real challenge as expansion can only work well if you keep your people happy. Extremely fun! ... And then you hit Theology and you don't need that anymore and Happiness becomes a non-issue. Maybe it gets relevant again later in the game, but at least from Theology to the early renaissance, it doesn't matter anymore. Might be that with long wars and war weariness this changes, but I also never ran into issues with this.
    Unhealthiness, on the other hand, never played a role. Maybe, depending on Agricultural Civics, a strong Sick-face malus could be introduced per pop. Like "With the first civic: +5 sick faces per pop" "With 2nd Civic, +4 Sick faces per pop over 3 pop" Something like this. Because right now, I completely ignored healthiness and spammed all the sick face generating buildings.

    Edit: Still not an issue at all.

    Properties
    - Flammability was a little bit of juggling early on, but then stopped around mid ancient. Occasionally burn down of buildings (every few 100 turns), and I keep an eye on it, not to build every smelter or every smith in every city. Quite well balanced, but stuff like fire brigades etc are not really worth building. Could be a tad higher, but very good overall.
    BTW, what about forest fires? They happen quite often, are they somewhat related to this property?
    - Crime is very well balanced, I have to take care what I build and until early medival era, I had to avoid growth of my cities (or build law enforcement). Now it is still slightly negative in my biggest (22 pop) city. Could be a minuscule higher, given that I play on such a high difficulty.
    - Education: I never really had to fight for it, even in my biggest cities, it is always as high as I need for the highest possible Education benefit building. Not sure if you can even manage to get it negative even if you wanted to.
    - Pollution: WAY too low. Never been an issue. Even when spamming buildings that introduce high amounts of pollution. There was this one guy once on the forum who wanted to rework it, but then left. He wanted to make water pollution a big topic in the medival times, as it was. Population should be the main source of pollution, especially Water, and this can be severely increased. Up to a point, where you are forced to avoid growth of your cities above 10, 15 or 20, or deal with the consequences. At least on higher difficulties. Pollution is NOT a problem that only appeared in the industrial age.
    - Disease: The first two eras were a bit of a juggling, but then not anymore. In my biggest cities (22 pop), I have like -50 crime an -300 Disease. And still I can build buildings there that would give in total something like -50 disease per turn.

    Edit: The Biggest city in the end of Renaissance was 31 (I just let them grow now) and I have 4800 Education. Flammability is 15, Disease -650 (can further build buildings worth of -85/turn) and Crime -85. Crime basically was completely annihilated with Criminology. I guess from Pop 30 or so, if you can consider a city "big", crime per pop should go up. So lets say, from Pop 1 to 30 you have 5 crime per pop, from 31 to 50 you have 10 crime per pop etc. This could of course be smoothed out. Pollution was no issue at all at this time.
    I expected pollution to go skyrocket during the industrial revolution. Nope. It rarely went above 0. I took care where to build factories etc, but still... this was WAY too easy. Maybe consider this: Make factories more worthwhile to build (+more hammers, more gold (from the taxes of the employees) but increase the pollution. This can be done gradually, as you can have "+5 Pollution when XY (like Industrialism) is known". Stateparks and preserves are a bit too overpowered as well. And I dislike that they all give the same Bonus to air AND water pollution. Cars are another major factor for air pollution and I think with cars, your cities should generate a lot more air pollution per pop.


    Other observations:
    - Calligraphy School and Tapestry Workshop both require 13 Pop. I think at least the latter should be reduced to 6 pop, as it is quite an early building.
    - Toll House and Costum Office replace each other, I think this is an oversight.
    - Copernicus Observatory requires books (why?), but not printing press. Ok, I just realised you could technically trade them.
    However, Pyramids require sculpture, which requires, the workshop, which requires the Trading post, which requires Trade. This is quite an annoying, hidden prereq and could be made more obvious IMO.
    - The Beacon (Great Barrier Reef) continues to show "40 turns till upgrade to Lighthouse (Great Barrier Reef), but stays at 40 turns. Yes, it is worked all the time and yes, I do have Engineering researched. Edit: Apparantly my ships also can't build it, if it even exists...
    - Entertainers can't build dances. I just saw that a building called "Fertility Festival", that requires 3 Fertility Dances - that I now can't build anymore I guess. The wonder and the dances obsolete only at Womans Suffrage, so quite a while down the road.
    - Corporations could need a rework. +10 Food per resource from Mobby Meat is quite OP, compared to others. And Corporations can give a meaning to produced goods from factories, in turn increase the Air Pollution (see above). A corporation that gives +5 hammers per XY Ingot would be a cool way to make use of more than 1 smelter nation wide.
    - Group Wonders are nice, but maybe could be scaled down by number of opponents. If everybody can build a financial elite uni, there is no competition.
    - Art Gallery, National Railroad Musem, National Aircraft Musem can have the bonus from Techs removed, that were a prereq anyways. The latter two buildings can quite a Buff as they are weak for a national wonder.
    - Spice Voyage does not obsolete ever, which feels odd.
    - Sheriffs Office gives -15 Crime. It replaces both Guard Station (-25 Crime) AND Bailiweck (-7 Crime).
    - Cliff Dwelling (Housing) is replaced at High Rises. That's quite late, isn't it?
    - Factories, Power plants, Smelters... They could use some modifications by techs, like first increasing Pollution and Flamability, and later reducing it. Also modification to gold with techs would be feasble.
    - Buildings like discount store are not worth building. If a building costs 1000 hammers, it would need to generate at least 500 Gold or Science over it's lifetime to outmatch the "Wealth" type buildings. And there you get it directly.
    - Oil Refinery / Derrick do not produce any Air Pollution or Flammability?!
    - Rail Station produces Air Pollution, this should be gone when you have electric railroads.
    - Natural Gas Power Plant generates gold, while other power plants cost gold
    - Mega Farm with +50% Food is very OP
    - Garrison replaces Ekal Masharti, while Military Base (the Upgrade of Garrison) does not. Looks like an oversight, as Ekal also does not obsolete.
    - Routes are too cheap. There is a reason why Madrid isn't connected to Shanghai by Bullet Train - they are huge, expensive projects!
    - Schools, College etc give + science with Pencils etc. This can be changed to + Education with those Resources. I believe there is a tag for this now.
    - Orchestion Theater (Clockpunk) also requires Realism. I think it should come way earlier, if it is a Clockpunk tech.
    - The original "Laboratory" building should be considered to be removed. What does it represent? We have labs for pretty much every field of science now.
    - Heavy Water Production Plant is a National Wonder. Really don't see why you couldn't build more. Deuterium gets really useful for Fusion and in science in general - it is used to mark molecules in chemical or biochemical experiments.

    I have savegames from the hotseat game and from Raxos Map. Also, I have a savegame on raxos map at the beginning of Renaissance, Industrial and Atomic Age, if you are interested in it. Not sure if I can upload, because I am on a ship right now and the internet is potatoes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  16. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    Perhaps because you lost the Guild Halls? Or did you also switch from Apprenticeship which is a very powerful civic (the Apprentice Workshop is one of the best buildings in the game)?
     
  17. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    No, I changed after the guild hall was obsolete. Also I surely keep apprenticeship until the building Obsoletes. I will repost this in the bug forum, including a save, when I am back home in a month.
     
  18. Blazenclaw

    Blazenclaw eccentric eclectic

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    Very good feedback! ^.^
    I think @JosEPh_II is currently doing work on civic balancing; within the last week-ish he made an update that alters maintenance costs to make the tradeoffs a little more interesting, but not quite to the same extent as what you're thinking. One problem that arises with civics is that it does start to get somewhat political; people start arguing about which are better or should do what. Socialism is scary to many Americans, Capitalism elsewhere, etc etc :crazyeye:
    Spoiler Pictures :
    - Domestic advisor:
    upload_2020-10-7_12-33-7.png
    There's a button at the bottom of the domestic advisor screen that actually allows you to totally customize how it appears. It's a bit of a pain adjusting - to increase pixel width of a column by 100 I think you need to click 100 times - but you should be able to save the file to use across different games!

    -Plot visibility:
    upload_2020-10-7_12-38-28.png
    You can actually do this in the BUG mod options, though not sure if there's a way to make it visible from the city screen.
    Regarding improvements in territory not in a city, I don't know of a way to do that, though I definitely agree it would be helpful. I usually work around it by having a few workers and workboats on auto-improve, to catch the spots I miss.
    Building ban/prefer lists are something that's somewhat frequently asked about, but there are also some arguments against it by others I vaguely recall; that's part of the core gameplay, deciding what buildings when? Automating it is essentially automating a huge portion of the game? I don't care strongly either way, so not really the person to elaborate on it.
    Agreed with health and happiness being essentially binary, they are often forgettable past a certain point. I'm curious to see about making an alteration or an autobuilding that depends on the ratio of happiness, but that's in the future ^.^;
    Properties are tough to balance... will have to keep this result in mind for whenever the next pass is.
    Lots of good bugs/oddities here; not sure group wonders can be reduced when fewer players (at least easily), but most items here are definitely easy tweaks I can make, if they haven't been done already. I'll see about doing these right now actually, lol. Once again, thank you for the detailed list!
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
    MattCA likes this.
  19. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    i have written before about this, but it is getting really bad lately, if u look at the pic, u see all the bombardment weapons and i never have even built one of them. I get them free from the enemy, and workers also do this from the enemy????
     

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  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Most of what I've been quietly working on in the background for the last year or so has been about resolving this and many other tactical AI issues that are almost impossible to resolve by spot fixes.
    Will be reworking a lot about them - and about education issues in general with the unit stuff coming. Once the ability to address education issues gets better filled out by new units coming, I will return education demand increases that were for a moment making it impossible to deal with past a point. Then it will just take some play to dial it in better.
    Lots of plans in regards to major changes to this stuff, many of which you've previously inspired but I've been working on the unit and tactical side of the game design as the higher priority right now. We also still eventually do plan to get the energy property in play which will make for some interesting things with this.

    Most of what you bring up, Mouse, as I'm sure you know, is not stuff that is worth trying to resolve directly but notations that suggest deeper overall methodological changes to the entire mod tree in certain areas. Some of it if we dial in, will be imbalanced as fast as other projects come to fruition. I don't think we're quite yet at a point where we're just trying to perfect the interior design - there's still a lot of basic framing at work and what we have as a game right now is still very largely out of whack and will be for a while as longer term plans make some perfecting and fine tuning a somewhat time wasteful pursuit.
     

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