Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

If VCrakeV had reported "lead AI reached Sed Life at turn 900", this is much easier to miss or ignore than "lead AI reached Sed Life at 40000BC"
That wouldn't be the report, the report would be:
"I feel tech progression is too fast/slow in this or that era" or "Time victory trigger too early/late" accompanied with a save for us to look at the expected tech progression based on turn count as well as looking at why beakers per turn is too litle or too much here or there.

In VCrakeV case specifically he would probably have reported that AI invented sed life earlier than he expected i.e. long before he was even close to it. And that is what he did report, the date he mentioned was not of any particular interest to us, handicap and options are, and those we would have got from a potentially attached save file.
 
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I have enjoyed Raxo's recalibration work - he did a great job on it and we all knew even then that it would need to be reconsidered every few years or versions. So... we're getting to that point again. Ok.
 
I have enjoyed Raxo's recalibration work - he did a great job on it and we all knew even then that it would need to be reconsidered every few years or versions. So... we're getting to that point again. Ok.
Yeah recalibration is pretty simple: On average game you should get tech per 2.1 turns on Normal game speed.
There will be games where average pacing is 50% faster or slower. What matters is average game.
I analysed tech tree - took under account all techs and minimum techs needed to pass era, and averaged two extreme cases.
Then I planned out at what percentage of game each era would be reached - its roughly proportional to amount of techs per era.
Global tech cost modifier is best thing to adjust Prehistoric tech pacing (tech per two turns on normal)
Then tech cost modifier in each era could be changed.

Even if calendar wasn't here tech pacing should be balanced enough to finish tech tree on last turn in average game.
There could be round numbers in calendar (with irregular single turn steps to level ground for supposed next era), but I would need multiple substeps.

Majority of games should have their tech tree finished on last turn +-20% turns in given game speed.
 
Is the "One More Turn" Option still working at end of regular game? Or has that been done away with? Don't know cause I have not made it to end of game in almost 10 years now. :p
 
Yeah recalibration is pretty simple: On average game you should get tech per 2.1 turns on Normal game speed.
The Ai is close to that. Obviously the player on higher difficulty levels won't be. Especially if this calculation was done on Player and AI having Research on at 100%. raxo2222 can correct me if he used a Research setting for his calculations at less than 100% on the Research slider.

In reality if raxo222 did do this (research at 100%) it should be based on research at 70-75%.
 
Is the "One More Turn" Option still working at end of regular game? Or has that been done away with? Don't know cause I have not made it to end of game in almost 10 years now. :p
I wouldn't know how to turn that option off tbh. And why would anyone want to?
 
Yeah recalibration is pretty simple: On average game you should get tech per 2.1 turns on Normal game speed.
There will be games where average pacing is 50% faster or slower. What matters is average game.

Just providing some technology-level statistics on average turns per tech learned, which back up Raxo's rules of thumb. So far I have played through the first 2 Eras and most of the Classical era (learning 214 Techs, including 5 free techs from goody huts, etc.), averaging a 76% Science rate allocation . I averaged 3.3 turns per tech which is roughly the upper end of the Raxo's estimate (with slow decreases by era, 3.0 in Prehistoric, 3.4 in Ancient, and 3.6 in Classical).

Game played at Emperor difficulty at Normal speed on a Small C2C_World "Earthlike" map with Medium Sea Level and 5 AIs, at SVN code level SVN11223, with with Standard Traits and TD enabled, and WFL disabled. I realize the strong recommendation is to play at Long or Epic speed, but this is an experiment at Normal speed (for 2 reasons - beaten badly by the AIs and boringly slow gameplay in my last 2 games at Emperor on Standard-sized maps, and a posting suggestion by Joseph about moving to a faster speed to progress past the first few eras). I am enjoying playing at Normal speed, and will likely continue using this speed in future games (and it helps that I am doing swell against the AI).

If anybody is interested, I can post or email an immense (812 KB) and complicated LibreOffice spreadsheet with tech-by-tech detailed statistics. I can also dig out some summary statistics from previous games at the Long speed on Standard sized maps (although theses all suffer from poor resource distribution).
 
I averaged 3.3 turns per tech which is roughly the upper end of the Raxo's estimate (with slow decreases by era, 3.0 in Prehistoric, 3.4 in Ancient, and 3.6 in Classical).
Hey SirJohnEh, Good to see you post. :)
This is closer to what I avg on Emperor and Normal with 6-8 AI. Although now that I am at the start of the Ren era, and in a Culture War with a neighbor over border tiles and a city he placed in a pocket in my border before I could close it, I am taking 5-6 turns at 75% Research Slider and 25% Culture slider positions. Even bumping it up to 100% it will be 3-6 turns dependent upon where in the tech tree and era the tech is being researched from. I still have a couple Classical and several Medieval Era Techs to research, if I can not outright buy them. And this game I have bought a lot of Tech since early Classical Era. And I am founding and building as many Religions as I can. Some of which give a nice # of Research beakers.

Sidenote: I am a bit disappointed over the Treasury and :gold:/turn @75% Research and 25% Culture. I am now making 7K/turn and have a Treasury of 260K+. And this is with the Gov't Civic changes I made recently to NumCity, Distance, HomeArea and OtherArea Maint. modifiers. Almost All Gov't Civics from Classical Era on were increased. But in terms of Gold and Treasury out of 7 Empires I rank 4th in Total Gold. Just caught up to number 4 and passed him. The Leader in Gold already has 1.4+ Million for his Treasury.
 
More Stuff observed:

- Manhatten Project requires Aerospace Complex or Military Airbase. Why not normal Military base? Also, why does it require Uranium OR Heavy Water? For Fusion Bombs (H-Bomb), you also need Uranium to trigger the Fusion.
- Missile Lab has no benefits at all?
- Sputnik comes at advanced rockets, but requires Satellites (come later) as well. Satellites require Solar Power, but Sputnik and other very early Satellites did not have any Solar Power on Board.
- Pop Art obsoletes Art Patronage, but unlocks Warhols Factory, which in turn gives a Buff to Art Patronage
- Hypersonic Recon Plane requires Aluminium. Should be Titanium and only Titanium, as Aluminium would not withstand the extreme environment the plane is operating in.
- Tabulator Firm gives good stats with no Flammability, but Diskette Factory or Flash Factory are a strong downgrade from it (and replace it)
- Particle Accelerator has +25 Flammability? That is huge, and I never heard that an Accelerator caused a catastrophic Fire...
- Hubble should be reworked; it should be a Mission Reward (Low Earth Orbit) and give some science
- Apollo Program should also be reworked to be more in Line with Mercury and Gemini.
- Gene Forgery should be moved to Gene Manipulation
- Extreme Sports Buildings need a Buff, otherwise they are useless. Also, why do they double culture after 1000 years? This will never happen
- If you want to avoid Tech Names with "Advanced" or "early" in it, how about renaming advanced rockets to "Orbital Rockets?"
- More ideas for UN-Votes: Ban Biological, Chemical, AI, Antimatter Weapons or Militarisation of Space
- Marsian Rocks should be produced by "Mission to Mars" Wonder. If you already have cities on Mars, Marsian Rocks are not that special anymore.
- Why is the Forensic Lab a prereq of Stem Cell Lab?
- Communication Sats should not have the Space Port Requirement. They are launched from somewhere, and then operated from elsewhere. You have the Launch Site Effect in every city
- Cell Phone Factory has the ususal Flammability and Pollution from Factories, but Tablet or Smartphone maker do not have them.
- Many later factories don't have any Flammability or Pollution
- International Space Station should also be reworked and be more like MIR or Skylab
- I get a broken Hydro Dam Event every few turns now... pretty much the only event I get
- Cloning Lab should not require "First Cloned Mammal"; should be the other way round
- "Enhanced Species" effect should be uncoupled from Proteomic Database and come later (at Gene Enhancement)
- Pollution Scrubbers should reduce Air Pollution, but increase Water Pollution
- Wikia is way to expensive and I don't see why it would increase city maintenance
- ITER should also be remaked (I don't like these world projects as you can tell^^)
- OLED Factory should not require Bioinformatics Lab, Biopolymers or Enzymes
- Center for AI / Biotech / Nano Research could have later pendants for Antimatter or FTL travel; also a nice idea would be events that are devastating but can only happen if you don't have the Center
- Lunar Base to Lunar Outpost should work the same way as Space Station Lvl 1 to Level 2. You should not be able to build the Outpost right away.
- Aqueduct obsoletes at Mega Cities, making Noria (and others) unbuildable
- Interplanetary probe cannnot make the "explore Mars" on every terrain
- Landfill obsoletes at Mega Cities (where goes the Garbage then?)
- Cislunar Workship at Coilgun? It can't be build until Advanced Enironmental Systems, which comes quite a bit later
- What about a Starlink Wonder (Gives a Bonus to Wireless Networks, or free Com Sats in every city) and a Giga Factory Wonder?
- Holografic Sol-Sys comes at Jovian Exploration but also requires Holographics, which comes an era later
- Biomorphics Lab has the same issues, with Thought Scanning (I know that these buildings might be moved around a bit)
- Is it intentional that you can build all Megatower Crowns in the same city?
- Quantum Super PC requires Quantum Dots, but gets a +1% Bonus with Quantum dots
- Certain "Old School" buildings (Cloning Lab, ITER, Laboratory, Fusion Power Plant etc) would need a bit of rebalance
- Same goes for Biopunk or Cyberpunk, as they are designed way before the later areas were fleshed out
- Organic Computer Lab should not give organic PC as resource (otherwise the Organic PC Factory is completely useless)
- Solar Updraft Tower should either come much earlier (when you can build mega towers) or not be a wonder anymore
- The Magnetic Sail worker can build an "Asteroid Mine" on Organic Volatiles, even if these are on a Moon (Like Ganymed)
- Martian Megacity, O'Neil Cylinder etc do not have Pop requirements. Seems strange to build a mega city with only 1 Pop (less than 1000 People). Maybe a "Space Immigrant" unit, builable on earth, might be an idea? Later versions could reduce the city's pop by 5 or 10 when build and increase the target city by the same amount; to deal with over population on earth. Maybe later, buildings could automate this a bit?
- Apocalyptical, Dystopia, Prototyped Pathogens unlock neat Biotech buildings, but why are they called Pathogens? This literally means "suffering producer" and refers to harmfull stuff ONLY.
- Venus Biotic Atmosphere requires Sulfuric Life in the same city, not 1 total. Therefore it can be build only once.
 
@Faustmouse ,

Would seem that you and pepper2000 need to have a conversation. ;) But since he's not really modding anymore... that might make it difficult to do.

Good list to keep handy though as we knew there would come the time to comb thru the late Era additions. :)
 
ccan we have the advisor only show technology which are tradeble.... it is showing all tech most of which is already owned by me
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Would seem that you and pepper2000 need to have a conversation. ;) But since he's not really modding anymore... that might make it difficult to do.
If someone's not modding any more... their stuff should be more or less free to edit, particularly if it's in core game, no?
ccan we have the advisor only show technology which are tradeble.... it is showing all tech most of which is already owned by me
Is not the right column what you are looking for? Seems Siam is ahead of you in tech, and willing to trade a number of things to you? The left column - what you have and they want - is useful for trading away tech or brokering it.
[Edit]: Wait yeah, some of those don't seem to make sense given the prereq chains required.
 
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Is not the right column what you are looking for? Seems Siam is ahead of you in tech, and willing to trade a number of things to you? The left column - what you have and they want - is useful for trading away tech or brokering it.
It's been reported that it shows wrong techs in both of those columns, it's on my ToDo list to review it.
 
More Stuff observed:

- Manhatten Project requires Aerospace Complex or Military Airbase. Why not normal Military base? Also, why does it require Uranium OR Heavy Water? For Fusion Bombs (H-Bomb), you also need Uranium to trigger the Fusion.
- Missile Lab has no benefits at all?
- Sputnik comes at advanced rockets, but requires Satellites (come later) as well. Satellites require Solar Power, but Sputnik and other very early Satellites did not have any Solar Power on Board.
- Pop Art obsoletes Art Patronage, but unlocks Warhols Factory, which in turn gives a Buff to Art Patronage
- Hypersonic Recon Plane requires Aluminium. Should be Titanium and only Titanium, as Aluminium would not withstand the extreme environment the plane is operating in.
- Tabulator Firm gives good stats with no Flammability, but Diskette Factory or Flash Factory are a strong downgrade from it (and replace it)
- Particle Accelerator has +25 Flammability? That is huge, and I never heard that an Accelerator caused a catastrophic Fire...
- Hubble should be reworked; it should be a Mission Reward (Low Earth Orbit) and give some science
- Apollo Program should also be reworked to be more in Line with Mercury and Gemini.
- Gene Forgery should be moved to Gene Manipulation
- Extreme Sports Buildings need a Buff, otherwise they are useless. Also, why do they double culture after 1000 years? This will never happen
- If you want to avoid Tech Names with "Advanced" or "early" in it, how about renaming advanced rockets to "Orbital Rockets?"
- More ideas for UN-Votes: Ban Biological, Chemical, AI, Antimatter Weapons or Militarisation of Space
- Marsian Rocks should be produced by "Mission to Mars" Wonder. If you already have cities on Mars, Marsian Rocks are not that special anymore.
- Why is the Forensic Lab a prereq of Stem Cell Lab?
- Communication Sats should not have the Space Port Requirement. They are launched from somewhere, and then operated from elsewhere. You have the Launch Site Effect in every city
- Cell Phone Factory has the ususal Flammability and Pollution from Factories, but Tablet or Smartphone maker do not have them.
- Many later factories don't have any Flammability or Pollution
- International Space Station should also be reworked and be more like MIR or Skylab
- I get a broken Hydro Dam Event every few turns now... pretty much the only event I get
- Cloning Lab should not require "First Cloned Mammal"; should be the other way round
- "Enhanced Species" effect should be uncoupled from Proteomic Database and come later (at Gene Enhancement)
- Pollution Scrubbers should reduce Air Pollution, but increase Water Pollution
- Wikia is way to expensive and I don't see why it would increase city maintenance
- ITER should also be remaked (I don't like these world projects as you can tell^^)
- OLED Factory should not require Bioinformatics Lab, Biopolymers or Enzymes
- Center for AI / Biotech / Nano Research could have later pendants for Antimatter or FTL travel; also a nice idea would be events that are devastating but can only happen if you don't have the Center
- Lunar Base to Lunar Outpost should work the same way as Space Station Lvl 1 to Level 2. You should not be able to build the Outpost right away.
- Aqueduct obsoletes at Mega Cities, making Noria (and others) unbuildable
- Interplanetary probe cannnot make the "explore Mars" on every terrain
- Landfill obsoletes at Mega Cities (where goes the Garbage then?)
- Cislunar Workship at Coilgun? It can't be build until Advanced Enironmental Systems, which comes quite a bit later
- What about a Starlink Wonder (Gives a Bonus to Wireless Networks, or free Com Sats in every city) and a Giga Factory Wonder?
- Holografic Sol-Sys comes at Jovian Exploration but also requires Holographics, which comes an era later
- Biomorphics Lab has the same issues, with Thought Scanning (I know that these buildings might be moved around a bit)
- Is it intentional that you can build all Megatower Crowns in the same city?
- Quantum Super PC requires Quantum Dots, but gets a +1% Bonus with Quantum dots
- Certain "Old School" buildings (Cloning Lab, ITER, Laboratory, Fusion Power Plant etc) would need a bit of rebalance
- Same goes for Biopunk or Cyberpunk, as they are designed way before the later areas were fleshed out
- Organic Computer Lab should not give organic PC as resource (otherwise the Organic PC Factory is completely useless)
- Solar Updraft Tower should either come much earlier (when you can build mega towers) or not be a wonder anymore
- The Magnetic Sail worker can build an "Asteroid Mine" on Organic Volatiles, even if these are on a Moon (Like Ganymed)
- Martian Megacity, O'Neil Cylinder etc do not have Pop requirements. Seems strange to build a mega city with only 1 Pop (less than 1000 People). Maybe a "Space Immigrant" unit, builable on earth, might be an idea? Later versions could reduce the city's pop by 5 or 10 when build and increase the target city by the same amount; to deal with over population on earth. Maybe later, buildings could automate this a bit?
- Apocalyptical, Dystopia, Prototyped Pathogens unlock neat Biotech buildings, but why are they called Pathogens? This literally means "suffering producer" and refers to harmfull stuff ONLY.
- Venus Biotic Atmosphere requires Sulfuric Life in the same city, not 1 total. Therefore it can be build only once.
@Faustmouse get Github.
https://github.com/caveman2cosmos/Caveman2Cosmos/wiki/Developer-Guide
 
I agree that stuff from modders who left should be open for tweaks. Also many if the things I mentioned are from stock or older buildings, not necessarily from pepper.

And I don't mod anymore Raxo, I hardly find the time even for playing...
 
i agree..slavery stopping factory is bad. forces u to abandon slavery

but in star trek i see races who have slaves till space age. robots or androids should make slaves obsolete and not factory
 
If someone's not modding any more... their stuff should be more or less free to edit, particularly if it's in core game, no?
That is usually normal procedure. But to always be safe ask T-brd 1st.
 
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