Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Blazenclaw]

I did a good couple of tech quotes back in the day (eg: Ideograms, Bark Working, Canine Domestication). It looks like a lot may have changed, some quotes have different wording now, but I'm up for doing another batch or two of quotes if they are needed.

Oho, those are good ones! I'm - slowly - going through tech quotes with a user PhilosoShy on discord, up to Medieval at the moment (they're responsible for the mostly entirely re-recorded Ancient & Classical techs). If you want to help, might be best to coordinate there if possible?

Of greatest need atm is finding better quote text, I think.

 

[margolloxx]

Since towers are a little bit of a topic at the moment in the bugs thread, i would like to suggest something.

What i find myself doing early on, before units can claim tiles as an action, is build watchtowers to claim land to avoid spawning barbs but also to hinder the ai settlers to move through and settle at places i consider unfortunate for myself. Maybe i have conquered a prehistoric rival before being able to settle new cities and start building a line of watchtowers to block ai units to settle in between. It not just looks silly but feels a bit exploitative to me.

I am in doubt that this is intended (maybe it is?) so my suggestion would be to either have towers only buildable inside my borders or not to claim territory when built, ever.
Both options would still allow towers to be built anywhere later on with the action for units to claim land in mind while avoiding the early exploitative nature.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Since towers are a little bit of a topic at the moment in the bugs thread, i would like to suggest something.

What i find myself doing early on, before units can claim tiles as an action, is build watchtowers to claim land to avoid spawning barbs but also to hinder the ai settlers to move through and settle at places i consider unfortunate for myself. Maybe i have conquered a prehistoric rival before being able to settle new cities (1) and start building a line of watchtowers to block ai units to settle in between. It not just looks silly but feels a bit exploitative to me.

(2) I am in doubt that this is intended (maybe it is?) so my suggestion would be to either have towers only buildable inside my borders or not to claim territory when built, ever.
Both options would still allow towers to be built anywhere later on with the action for units to claim land in mind while avoiding the early exploitative nature.

(1)AI used to do this all the time before v40. But sometime during v40's course it started to change
(2) Super Fort Modmod author's design. Watch Towers are part of this modmod. WAD.

 

[kormer]

Once I get to the mid-classical or renaissance eras everyone once in a while I'll have a turn end that lasts forever. Going back an autosave or two will sometimes fix it, but not always. Is there anything I can do to fix this?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Once I get to the mid-classical or renaissance eras everyone once in a while I'll have a turn end that lasts forever. Going back an autosave or two will sometimes fix it, but not always. Is there anything I can do to fix this?

It could be a battle taking place somewhere and it's not actually forever. Otherwise, yes, post the save in the bugs and crashes thread so the infinite loop can be found and fixed.

 

[dmeyster]

Hi, is is there an easy way to upgrade all units simultaneously when a upgrade becomes available? Because what i have found out is only a upgrade button(hidden by default by the way) which you need to press on every single damn unit built to make it auto-up.

 

[tmv]

Hi, is is there an easy way to upgrade all units simultaneously when a upgrade becomes available? Because what i have found out is only a upgrade button(hidden by default by the way) which you need to press on every single damn unit built to make it auto-up.

ALT-click on the upgrade button should do it (if you have the money).

 

[dmeyster]

ALT-click on the upgrade button should do it (if you have the money).

This works on all same units? or how? (updated to new revesion cant check previous saves). Money usually not a problem, after medival i rly dunno how to spend them except hurring up production.

 

[dmeyster]

ALT-click on the upgrade button should do it (if you have the money).

It worked, not automatic though... ;(

 

[JosEPh_II]

Automatic Upgrade is an Option in BUG iirc.

 

[Somebody613]

Automatic Upgrade is an Option in BUG iirc.

Yeah, but I also recall it not working too stably - some units would upgrade, some wouldn't, and it's unpredictable most of the time.
And yes, I always have PLENTY of moneyz, so that's 101% not an issue.
It just doesn't trigger as AUTOMATICALLY, lol.

EDIT:
Best long-term proof: Workers.
Very often whenever one asks me for a Promotion, it also is capable of Upgrading (and thus obviously isn't doing it by itself).
The same has been spotted with the ability to "Upgrade units outside of your borders" - they more or less NEVER do it.
Though this might be another problem, because I often can't do it even manually, so it's the ability that is broken (or explained badly), I guess.

 

[tmv]

The problem with fully automatic upgrading is that sometimes you have a choice (early example: Spiked Clubmen can upgrade to Stone Axemen (good against melee), Stone Macemen (good against cities) or Neanderthal Warrior (if you have the culture). How is an automated system supposed to know what to upgrade to, especially if the replacement units are not given by the same tech?

 

[Somebody613]

The problem with fully automatic upgrading is that sometimes you have a choice (early example: Spiked Clubmen can upgrade to Stone Axemen (good against melee), Stone Macemen (good against cities) or Neanderthal Warrior (if you have the culture). How is an automated system supposed to know what to upgrade to, especially if the replacement units are not given by the same tech?

Good point, and I think this is very close to the general topic of making versatile AI enemies.
So I guess it's a matter of some future issues as of now.
Not that I care much about Automatic Upgrades, just that it ended up being confused by its own issues, lol.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I personally wished that we did not offer Automatic upgrades. As Pointed out by tmv how can it update automatically if it has Multiple choices. I personally stopped using it a long time ago. And it's really not that hard to click the same unit button to group select your units when in cities or stacks and then upgrade as many or few as you want or can afford.

To rely on a 32 bit game engine that can only us 2.9 Gb of memory to do perfect automation id in my view nonsensical. Again this is just my own personal opinion. Other modders of C2C may have different or similar opinions. We usually do by the way.

 

[raxo2222]

I personally wished that we did not offer Automatic upgrades. As Pointed out by tmv how can it update automatically if it has Multiple choices. I personally stopped using it a long time ago. And it's really not that hard to click the same unit button to group select your units when in cities or stacks and then upgrade as many or few as you want or can afford.

To rely on a 32 bit game engine that can only us 2.9 Gb of memory to do perfect automation id in my view nonsensical. Again this is just my own personal opinion. Other modders of C2C may have different or similar opinions. We usually do by the way.

Also this is 15 year old game, and likely automation wasn't remade for C2C

 

[Thunderbrd]

My AI rework will be able to very wisely choose from multiple upgrade paths IF the AI type of the unit is defined by the Player AI as it calls for units by its role needs. So for example, a Stone Thrower trained to attack units in the field will upgrade according to the best paths to keep being mostly useful for that role, whereas a Stone Thrower trained to defend a city, will upgrade according to the best paths to stay focused on the role of defending the city - they will also promote with these specialized priorities in mind.

However, if a Human player automates this task, it won't be as advanced as it will be for the AI because when a Human player trains a unit, they don't declare the specialized intended function of that unit by declaring the UnitAI it will be trained to be. This will leave all units of a given type trained as if they are to be the 'default' UnitAI role for Humans. That default role will guide its 'automatic' upgrades and 'automatic' promotions if set to do so automatically, but in all honesty, it won't often be the BEST way to go about it, and will leave your approach to the game much less refined than the AI if you let the game automate all that for you. Perhaps eventually I could expose the UnitAI settings to the player in a UI format, but... not really a critical project IMO.

An example: There are some 4 differing UnitAI type roles for LE units alone to fulfill. Some will be there to just raw lower crime as much as possible - others to spot incoming criminals - others to try to investigate - and others still to focus on beefing up to make arrests. There's more than a few roles for even simpler units like Swordsmen and Bowmen. For example, there are city defense Bowmen then there are those sent with city attack (and other types of stacks) to bombard enemy positions before others in the stack attack, and there to play other support roles in beefing up the attacker/defender in the stack. The promotion and upgrade needs are very different for all these differing types of unit roles.

To be honest, I wouldn't even want to TELL players to fulfill roles like this and how to go about strategically playing the game. My goal is to let the AI show them by example. If they even got to pick UnitAIs for their units and send them out all automated, they might upgrade and promote fine but they'd also fail to arrange groups properly so would still be more poor at being automated than being commanded by the wise human player.

 

[Somebody613]

My AI rework will be able to very wisely choose from multiple upgrade paths IF the AI type of the unit is defined by the Player AI as it calls for units by its role needs. So for example, a Stone Thrower trained to attack units in the field will upgrade according to the best paths to keep being mostly useful for that role, whereas a Stone Thrower trained to defend a city, will upgrade according to the best paths to stay focused on the role of defending the city - they will also promote with these specialized priorities in mind.

However, if a Human player automates this task, it won't be as advanced as it will be for the AI because when a Human player trains a unit, they don't declare the specialized intended function of that unit by declaring the UnitAI it will be trained to be. This will leave all units of a given type trained as if they are to be the 'default' UnitAI role for Humans. That default role will guide its 'automatic' upgrades and 'automatic' promotions if set to do so automatically, but in all honesty, it won't often be the BEST way to go about it, and will leave your approach to the game much less refined than the AI if you let the game automate all that for you. Perhaps eventually I could expose the UnitAI settings to the player in a UI format, but... not really a critical project IMO.

I have a short-time solution that will reflect that it's Automated (hint: if you don't WANT it Automated - then don't CHOOSE it, that's all).
This said, you can simply let the Auto-Upgrader "roll a die" for ALL available options (including whether to upgrade or not each turn, since it often seems that upgrading depends on WHERE you do it as well).
If the die rolls a YES for the action itself, then it simply chooses from the currently available pool and upgrades to whatever falls out, RANDOMLY.
Simple logic: those players who DO NOT want this (but want to have CONTROL over it), will NOT choose Auto-Upgrading in the first place, no?
Which means that it has to be an easily accessible option to set ON/OFF, of course (and I'm not sure whether it is now).
Better yet, and I personally would prefer that as well:
Making this not an Auto-Upgrade, but an Auto-Alert (which you can also turn OFF for that particular unit, if it annoys you with upgrades you DON'T want now).
This Alert should also have options:
-Upgrade this unit to: "choose from the list".
-Upgrade ALL such units to: "choose from the list".
-Ignore this unit for "BUG amount" of turns.
-Ignore this unit forever.
-Ignore ALL such units forever.
And a "BUG" for:
-Turn unit alerts ON/OFF.
Like I said.
Honestly, I don't think this would be so hard to implement as a "unit-related event" or something.
All of that would definitely be much easier to implement (and also use) than anything "AI".
Or so it seems to me, really.
Oh, and all of that just for the human player, not for AI players.
Those can do whatever they want, loool.
After all, for them it's ALWAYS "AUTO", no?

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... Ideas noted. I follow what you're saying though if I were automating, random assignments of various possible AI types to my units would be as bad as a fixed default assignment tbh.

 

[jatkinson]

The filters in the available buildings to build section of the city UI are really useful but one I'd like to see added if possible is a filter for "buildings that unlock other buildings". While I know how most buildign trees work in earlier eras as those are what I've played the most it can be a chore to find them in the list when I want to prioritize them. I can use the other filters to find them easier but it would be nice to have all of these in one filter.

 

[raxo2222]

The filters in the available buildings to build section of the city UI are really useful but one I'd like to see added if possible is a filter for "buildings that unlock other buildings". While I know how most buildign trees work in earlier eras as those are what I've played the most it can be a chore to find them in the list when I want to prioritize them. I can use the other filters to find them easier but it would be nice to have all of these in one filter.

I think this one may be tricky to code, since first it would track all buildings, that require those buildings (AND/OR/GOM type requirements), and then show only buildings, that are requirements.
That is X needs Y.
X needs Y or Z
X needs Y or resource Z (this one is GOM type requirement, which is used by some units and buildings).

X then would be shown in "buildings potentially unlocking other buildings" filter.
Same could be done for units and resources - if building is needed for unit, or if produces resource.

Resource producers could have two filters: If produces resource at all, and if produces resource, that you don't have yet.