Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
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JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@Noriad2,
I'm not sure who is in charge of REV code anymore. It was koshling for some time.
My question to you is, does the AI also handle Revs as well as you?
If Rev is still breaking up the leading Civs (AI) then impo it's still flawed. If Rev could ever be made to just affect the human player then it would be an ideal Player handicap. But as long as it destroys the AI Civs it dilutes the games challenge, horribly so. This is why I've never supported Rev in any fashion that involves the AI Civs.
I have similar reservations over Super Spies as well in this regard. If the AI can't use it properly then the player needs to be handicapped in it's use as well.
and 
and the usage of the healer units.
JosEPh
I'm not sure who is in charge of REV code anymore. It was koshling for some time.
My question to you is, does the AI also handle Revs as well as you?
If Rev is still breaking up the leading Civs (AI) then impo it's still flawed. If Rev could ever be made to just affect the human player then it would be an ideal Player handicap. But as long as it destroys the AI Civs it dilutes the games challenge, horribly so. This is why I've never supported Rev in any fashion that involves the AI Civs.
I have similar reservations over Super Spies as well in this regard. If the AI can't use it properly then the player needs to be handicapped in it's use as well.
As I look harder at crime I'm finding that the buildings that combat it come in clusters. So you have an early period in the game were it's a real struggle to control it but then you hit a period were a new group of anti-crime building open up and boom you build them you're stable/under control for sometime. So it's a peak and valley thing. But when you hit that peak you often have to build multiple Crime fighting units to maintain control. That is why you see the AI with massive amounts of TW, Guard, etc in their cities at time during a games course. They will also once crime has subsided move some of the crime fighting units outside the city. Partly for diffusion effects and partly for the defensive capabilities these units provide. Promotions do accelerate this usage as well. And so do the cost of the unit vs the cost of a building in regards to crime fighting. Same for
and and the usage of the healer units.JosEPh
Is this not what Rise of Mankind has done? In their options there is a setting where you can change the Revolution difficulty to 0, 2.5, 5 or 10, I think...
I think I read it only affected the human player
Noriad2
Emperor
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In my games, most AIs don't suffer from Rev, some large civs occasionally lose one city or at most a small number of cities. Rev does and should affect higher difficulties more, and since the AI always plays on a low difficulty, that protects that AI a bit.
Furthermore, in general I don't like rules "only against humans" other than self-chosen difficulty level. For example, the AI performance could be much improved by the following rules: 1) always declare war on a human player 2) never declare war on other AIs.
However that would be a less fun game. The AIs should each try to win on their own, as if they were actual individually played nations, and not make a difference between human opponents and other AI opponents. Same for game rules.
Collecting religions and stacking bonuses from religious buildings is typical behaviour of competent human players. So having multiple religions in the same city is a good subject to attach extra penalties to. The AI is mostly protected against those penalties because it doesn't stack religions as much and plays at a lower difficulty level than competent human players.
Cosmic Fox
Civ 6 Addict - TB Mod Collaborator
Getting to the end of the turns is just so irrelevant. Who has got to the end of the turns on any gamespeed?
Some people - perhaps most - never get to the Industrial era, and very few get to Modern. Some people don't want to.
Evidently some people want to play the first era or two really really slowly. It doesn't matter to them that they will never get to industrial, because they don't want to.
So let them!
It's simply false that there are balance issues etc due to "kowtowing" to Eternity players. I wholeheartedly agree that Eternity players should be aware that it is not the modders' responsibility to fix the consequences of their choice of gamespeed (and they are).
Well put, I agree with you, exactly how I feel when friends of mine come to me with little hissy fits how the game is going. (I wanted to stick by you as backup).
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Conflict between religions in the same city is not simple. Awhile ago I suggested something to Hydro which would work towards making getting all religions in your cities less good. It is not simple to implement as I also wanted some other things to do with it that used the Judge, Lawyer, Diplomat (not yet available) and Great Statesman (not yet available) units.
Firstly we need a grid of how each religion tolerates each other religion by Civic and not just the Religion Civic and proposes new religion civic.
My suggestion was that
Firstly we need a grid of how each religion tolerates each other religion by Civic and not just the Religion Civic and proposes new religion civic.
My suggestion was that
- each religion temple has a small anti crime value (as per Joe's suggestion)
- for each pair of temples in a city there is a small unhappiness and apparent crime because people of the non state religion see crimes not being punished in the way they should be or ignored totally eg Mormon's may consider the drinking of wine sinful and hence a crime but the state only punishes drunkenness. The value here would be based on the religion tolerance of the state religion and the religion civic.
- Diplomats, Judges, Lawyers and Statesmen can to some extent reconcile these differences based on the Legal civic.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Sounds good to me, i dont like ALL religions in a city anyways.
Also again< WHY is there a bombardment unit attached to the Warlord Corporal and others IF there is no bombardment avail to bombard?? (see attached)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I like the suggestions regarding religions and Rev except that it only targets Rev which I feel is a can of worms to work with. It's design challenges those who would try to work with it. It's so python/dll interwoven with little bug points throughout as it is that trying to manipulate anything about it is difficult to say the least. But maybe something along those lines you suggest could be good still, rev or not.
I have a few other ideas on how to really address those issues too.
First, I love enhancing defense. It's more fun for a player to find it tough to expand and outgrow opponents than it is do achieve it and just get shattered apart for succeeding.
Second, I've been long considering a deep 'rev-like' mechanism for the mod that is based more on cultural emergence and clashes - religious conflicts could be woven into that fabric as it is developed.
Third, penalizing the research of larger nations (not just diffusion to less developed ones) could help a lot. Make bigger not necessarily better and you have to work harder to succeed the more you grow.
Fourth, I think we need to develop Nomadic Starts before we get too deeply into that stuff because it could really change early game progression a lot.
There's more ways than this of course.
I have a few other ideas on how to really address those issues too.
First, I love enhancing defense. It's more fun for a player to find it tough to expand and outgrow opponents than it is do achieve it and just get shattered apart for succeeding.
Second, I've been long considering a deep 'rev-like' mechanism for the mod that is based more on cultural emergence and clashes - religious conflicts could be woven into that fabric as it is developed.
Third, penalizing the research of larger nations (not just diffusion to less developed ones) could help a lot. Make bigger not necessarily better and you have to work harder to succeed the more you grow.
Fourth, I think we need to develop Nomadic Starts before we get too deeply into that stuff because it could really change early game progression a lot.
There's more ways than this of course.
Sparth
C2C Team Member
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Im not 100% sure we need RevMod. Maybe something simplier like this will do.
Maybe crime should be more problematic in larger empires and "barbarian" crime units spawns inside your borders? I know know - Great Wall and barbarians inside cultural borders. Lets just scrap this stupid great wonder finally.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
totally agree
Noriad2
Emperor
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Some more brainstorming: Civs blob hardest by conquering their neighbouring cities. An alternative way to penalize big civs might be to give a penalty to research based on culture of the city. If it is 100% your culture, you get 100% of your tech and money. If it is 100% not your culture, you get 0% of tech and only 50% of money.
What messes up this idea is the rule that if you take all cities of a civ, its culture vanishes too. This is why it is better to kill all enemy cities instead of leaving one alive. "requires complete kills" option may make culture survive a bit longer but that is temporary and situational. Maybe giving all civs an off-map dummy unit plus "requires complete kills" option always on would do the trick, but I don't know if that would mess with victory conditions or other things.
What messes up this idea is the rule that if you take all cities of a civ, its culture vanishes too. This is why it is better to kill all enemy cities instead of leaving one alive. "requires complete kills" option may make culture survive a bit longer but that is temporary and situational. Maybe giving all civs an off-map dummy unit plus "requires complete kills" option always on would do the trick, but I don't know if that would mess with victory conditions or other things.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Require complete kills is kinda annoying though.
This thinking would work well with the individual cultural tracking mechanism I'd like to see employed, which then relates back to making this a part of #1 on the previous suggestion list. I'd not considered adding such a dynamic to that plan but I like it.
... perhaps both approaches would be good though too. Some civs just grow huge and fully own all their cities and become monsters that can hardly be challenged quite quickly. I think of the way Joe and Koshling play in saying this.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
There is merit to removing REVMod.
This is already part of the mod and has been since City limits was introduced. It is contrary to the way Civ in general has been developed by Meier's and Co. thru the Civ series. Can you remake the core game? That is what this would entail. You can not make Civ have equal sized opponents through out the game. To even get close would require stripping away almost every Game set up Option. But that would "fly" real well for C2C.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm not suggesting all nations need to be the same size. I'm saying even the way the core game was developed has the flaw that once a nation gains momentum over the others it's much harder for any other civs to compete. In fact, yes, the problem is more prevalent in the core game than it is here because some things have been done about it here.This is already part of the mod and has been since City limits was introduced. It is contrary to the way Civ in general has been developed by Meier's and Co. thru the Civ series. Can you remake the core game? That is what this would entail. You can not make Civ have equal sized opponents through out the game. To even get close would require stripping away almost every Game set up Option. But that would "fly" real well for C2C.
But when this happens in C2C, the problem is worse because we're hoping to enable a player to be able to enjoy a much longer game that goes through much more history (and future) til its end. So we MUST make it nearly impossible to get an edge up on all other players to make this goal a reality. And we can do MORE of what we've done to make this the case by increasing penalties for civs that have greater momentum. It's more fun that way than it is just shattering the nation the player has achieved... not saying that's not a valid way to also go about achieving this goal though.
In particular, slowing the research rates the larger the civ becomes would be an appropriate way to truly hamper larger civs so as to give the smaller ones an opportunity to catch up or even surpass so they can attempt to make a real comeback.
Acularius
King
Well... In regards to keeping civs around so culture stays. Why not keep them around as guerillas. The more angry their 'cities', the more active and strong they are. Furthermore, everything will automatically be at war until they have a city.
That will keep the civ alive, and therefore their culture. If the culture is relatively happy, they are restricted to 'animal' units, and/or scouts so that hunters and the like still have a purpose.
So its like a Barbarian almost... Lastly they could go after a different city altogether and 'migrate' there, like the Great Migrations starting from the Steppes into Europe following the fall of the WRE.
It's just a thought to keep a civ alive and active, keep the player on his toes in recently conquered regions, or angry religious populations (Like the Romans in Judea) and such things like that.
That will keep the civ alive, and therefore their culture. If the culture is relatively happy, they are restricted to 'animal' units, and/or scouts so that hunters and the like still have a purpose.
So its like a Barbarian almost... Lastly they could go after a different city altogether and 'migrate' there, like the Great Migrations starting from the Steppes into Europe following the fall of the WRE.
It's just a thought to keep a civ alive and active, keep the player on his toes in recently conquered regions, or angry religious populations (Like the Romans in Judea) and such things like that.
The Galactic Era is very nearly content-free. That is unlikely to change any time soon.
