Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Go check how high are your yield modifiers in your cities.
My games play fine. If something was Off it would stand out. Why would I even bother to play if I have to do math calculations over every choice I make during a turn? Raxo your questions and all those pretty screenshots mean nothing to me. Why don't you just go play a normal game of C2C and find out from actual game play and experience. All this theorizing is just giving me 1 Big Headache. And I already Have a Big headache to start with. Just Give It a rest Please!
 
wasnt writing about disease's, just whole buildings in part . .
Late game has lots of adjustment yet to be made. What else can I say. I think we went to far.
 
Late game has lots of adjustment yet to be made. What else can I say. I think we went to far.
i was writing about those buildings that a have a -:yuck: , i believe that 75% of the buildings after medieval have some sort of this, course i could be wrong. .
 
i was writing about those buildings that a have a -:yuck: , i believe that 75% of the buildings after medieval have some sort of this, course i could be wrong. .
You're talking about the manufacturing buildings that add up quite a bit. Yeah, that's something that I have a plan to address that will help with the AI overbuilding these because they are only concerned about the production + and at that point aren't looking at anything further. But that should be part of next version's big building evolution project.
 
You're talking about the manufacturing buildings that add up quite a bit. Yeah, that's something that I have a plan to address that will help with the AI overbuilding these because they are only concerned about the production + and at that point aren't looking at anything further. But that should be part of next version's big building evolution project.
BINGO, and actually quite a few others also, but yeah, just had a brain fa*t is all . . .
 
My games play fine. If something was Off it would stand out. Why would I even bother to play if I have to do math calculations over every choice I make during a turn? Raxo your questions and all those pretty screenshots mean nothing to me. Why don't you just go play a normal game of C2C and find out from actual game play and experience. All this theorizing is just giving me 1 Big Headache. And I already Have a Big headache to start with. Just Give It a rest Please!
I just like messing around mechanics in games.
I already played this mod once till I researched everything.
From my experiments it seemed like all yield modifiers are additive (total yield modifier being sum of all yield modifiers from all sources).
I just wanted to share my results with you guys especially Thunderbird as he knows how mechanics works in depth.
Basically given pseudobuilding/trait/civic with yield modifier slowly loses teeth as game progresses and more buildings with yield modifiers appears
My expectation/wish was that their bite doesn't change trough whole game.
But I guess AI isn't ready for that.

During my space playtrough (I think in middle of game) I stopped caring about yield modifiers not related to food and production.
I just kept crime from not spawning criminals and pollution from not blocking some buildings.
What would happen if someone just let their properties climb all way up (for education go all way down)?
One city wouldn't have +% yield buildings at all and second one would have as much of them as possible.
 
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raxo2222: total yield increase is (base * %bonus)
Higher base makes the %bonus more valuable, and higher %bonus makes adding to the base value more valuable.

For example:
if %hammer bonus is already +300% then every base hammer you add becomes +4 hammers
if base hammers is already 1000 then every additional % hammers becomes +10 hammers

Adding both to base hammers AND percentage leads to exponential growth rather than linear growth.
 
raxo2222: total yield increase is (base * %bonus)
Higher base makes the %bonus more valuable, and higher %bonus makes adding to the base value more valuable.

For example:
if %hammer bonus is already +300% then every base hammer you add becomes +4 hammers
if base hammers is already 1000 then every additional % hammers becomes +10 hammers

Adding both to base hammers AND percentage leads to exponential growth rather than linear growth.
I meant total % bonus as in sum of all % modifiers from all sources, not entire base*(sum of all % modifiers from all sources) productivity
Example: productivity (can be anything) = base*(property pseudobuilding1 + property pseudiobuilding2 + building1 + building2 + civic1 + civic2 + trait1 + resource1 + resource2).
This would represent city, where you have 2 buildings, 2 property pseudobuildings, 2 civics, 2 resources and trait, that have yield modifiers all summing to single %bonus, that is used as multiplier for base.
Currently pseudobuilding yield modifiers can get flooded easily by all other yield modifiers.
As I said before 500% yield from all other sources -10% yield from property pseudobuilding still is 490% increase of base.
This is what we have now.
If buildings, wonders and resources (+1% yield modifier for having resource X) yield modifiers weren't summing well above 100%, then pseudobuildings, civics and traits still could be strong contribution to total % modifier.

I think I have > +1000% modifier for culture/gold in some cities on my endgame save (latest SVN)
Food, Production and GP generation seems to be best balanced, although Production could be like 5x higher by end of history (all eras researched)
I think in some other games someone was screaming STOP PLAYING WITH NUMBERS AND PLAY GAME AS IT WAS DESIGNED too :p
 

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I think in some other games someone was screaming STOP PLAYING WITH NUMBERS AND PLAY GAME AS IT WAS DESIGNED too
Do you think this just might be from you driving them Crazy!??:crazyeye:

Toffer pegged you right,:p OCD to the Max! :cringe::nono::rolleyes:
 
I'd like a setting that allows you to raise your education and tourism in the prehistoric age, removing tech requirements.

I would call it "Noble savages".
 
Do you think this just might be from you driving them Crazy!??:crazyeye:

Toffer pegged you right,:p OCD to the Max! :cringe::nono::rolleyes:
Well that depends if they are conservative casuals who just play game as is or make small adjustments on surface, or revolutionists, who want to make deep changes in game design.
I'm more at "viva la revolution side" :p
 
Toffer pegged you right,:p OCD to the Max! :cringe::nono::rolleyes:
I pegged raxo as OCD back in November when he started posting in my interface overhaul modmod thread.
It isn't a negative trait per definition, OCD can be very useful as it allows a person to completely delve into time consuming and typically boring work without loosing focus and enthusiasm along the way.
You just have to accept it for what it is, understand it instead of criticize it, if you find the frequent elaborate posts he/she make annoying, just ignore some, or most, of them.
 
Tourism was removed from prehistoric because it had no anti-crime units at the time.

If you stacked prehistoric tourism wonders in the same city the crime from tourism levels became so high you could get major Rev trouble. And without anti-crime units there was no way to compensate for the high crime numbers.

However there are now anti-crime units in prehistoric. Which means the original reason to remove tourism from prehistoric has vanished. So prehistoric tourism can be put back again now.
 
@raxo2222 Part of the issues in regards of base*a*b*c*d vs base*(a+b+c+d) is the speed the numbers are climbing.
For example, a building grants +2% gold for resource you have out of 10 vs a building that grants +20% gold. If you have all resources, with the first you'll get 1.219 times the gold, while the other 1.2. Considering the way most buildings are designed currently, such a change will cause many issues across the board.
If you have issues with specific bonuses such as civics, wouldn't it be more effective to revamp the civics? If at the modern era a city has +300% hammers and civics gives +20%, then wouldn't it be simpler to raise it to 80% (or whatever number you choose) instead of trying to change it to base*(sum of civics)*(sum of other bonuses)?
Another issue if you go by some of the bonuses being added and some are multiply, is that you will have to find a way to communicate which is what.
 
Tourism was removed from prehistoric because it had no anti-crime units at the time.

If you stacked prehistoric tourism wonders in the same city the crime from tourism levels became so high you could get major Rev trouble. And without anti-crime units there was no way to compensate for the high crime numbers.

However there are now anti-crime units in prehistoric. Which means the original reason to remove tourism from prehistoric has vanished. So prehistoric tourism can be put back again now.

Ah, that's good to know, I'll try modding out those tech prerequisites and see how the game runs then.
 
I pegged raxo as OCD back in November when he started posting in my interface overhaul modmod thread.
It isn't a negative trait per definition, OCD can be very useful as it allows a person to completely delve into time consuming and typically boring work without loosing focus and enthusiasm along the way.
You just have to accept it for what it is, understand it instead of criticize it, if you find the frequent elaborate posts he/she make annoying, just ignore some, or most, of them.
Hmmh I think he just dislikes exposing base design shortcomings (because no better alternatives are existing now) and theoretical discussions.
Or general VIVA LA REVOLUTION attitude :p
At least they will have enough suggestions for next 5 C2C mod versions :mischief:

Tourism was removed from prehistoric because it had no anti-crime units at the time.

If you stacked prehistoric tourism wonders in the same city the crime from tourism levels became so high you could get major Rev trouble. And without anti-crime units there was no way to compensate for the high crime numbers.

However there are now anti-crime units in prehistoric. Which means the original reason to remove tourism from prehistoric has vanished. So prehistoric tourism can be put back again now.
Revolutions modmod is unsupported anyway.
Best option would be hide that option for them and make our own revolutions mod.

@raxo2222 Part of the issues in regards of base*a*b*c*d vs base*(a+b+c+d) is the speed the numbers are climbing.
For example, a building grants +2% gold for resource you have out of 10 vs a building that grants +20% gold. If you have all resources, with the first you'll get 1.219 times the gold, while the other 1.2. Considering the way most buildings are designed currently, such a change will cause many issues across the board.
If you have issues with specific bonuses such as civics, wouldn't it be more effective to revamp the civics? If at the modern era a city has +300% hammers and civics gives +20%, then wouldn't it be simpler to raise it to 80% (or whatever number you choose) instead of trying to change it to base*(sum of civics)*(sum of other bonuses)?
Another issue if you go by some of the bonuses being added and some are multiply, is that you will have to find a way to communicate which is what.
I just want property pseudobuildings, civics and traits yield modifiers have consistent impact trough whole game.
Having all yield modifiers being multiplicative is bad.
No idea, if two multiplicative groups (base*%bonus1*%bonus2) is accetable proposition.
Bonus1 group would be civics+traits+property pseudobuildings, and Bonus2 group would be sum of all other %modifiers.
Alternatively you could nerf all other %modifier sources.
 
And Joe has angryism ;)

Joe, can you give us some more details about what the latest SVN actually does? I'd just like to know what I should be on the lookout for. Earlier disease starts, or that they just don't obsolete? Stuff like that...

Trouble is I think I turned on the under development epidemic spread disease thing in my last game and that's it's on by default in my current game, because I haven't even seeing the common cold yet. I've decided to ignore it for now and wait and see what happens with it as I advance through the ages, but is there maybe some way I can switch it back to the standard in game?
 
Tourism was removed from prehistoric because it had no anti-crime units at the time.

If you stacked prehistoric tourism wonders in the same city the crime from tourism levels became so high you could get major Rev trouble. And without anti-crime units there was no way to compensate for the high crime numbers.

However there are now anti-crime units in prehistoric. Which means the original reason to remove tourism from prehistoric has vanished. So prehistoric tourism can be put back again now.
Actually it was not removed but the way it was introduced and built up was. Also the Heavy amounts of crime associated with it were scaled per tourism level. All levels of Tourism do not give +10 Crime any more. That was insane.
Hmmh I think he just dislikes exposing base design shortcomings (because no better alternatives are existing now) and theoretical discussions.
No you actually do give me a headache when I read your posts. And you are Very prolific in your post making. :old:
And Joe has angryism ;)

Joe, can you give us some more details about what the latest SVN actually does? I'd just like to know what I should be on the lookout for. Earlier disease starts, or that they just don't obsolete? Stuff like that...

Trouble is I think I turned on the under development epidemic spread disease thing in my last game and that's it's on by default in my current game, because I haven't even seeing the common cold yet. I've decided to ignore it for now and wait and see what happens with it as I advance through the ages, but is there maybe some way I can switch it back to the standard in game?

I have :old: ism. Which in turn produces less patience, which then produces headaches. And poor Raxo is The Top Headache giver on the Forum right now. Sorry Raxo. And I have asked multiple time fro you to slow down ie. "cool your jets", please.

Yes with the Outbreaks and Afflictions Option On you have completely disabled Disease property. Because the O&A Option is too incomplete to be used. I think T-brd has actually hidden the Option now with any New game started with latest SVN.

There are 16 Individual Diseases. All have Disease entry levels. These levels are when the Disease counter reaches a specific level And the Disease is available by it's prereqTech and/or Pest condition it will be activated. Only Common Cold has no PrereqTech. It's entry level is +25 disease. Com Cold gives -1 :health: or 1 :yuck: and also gives 1 :mad: or unhappiness. Com Cold does not affect Food, Production or Gold.

The next is at +75 disease and that is Scurvy which enters the game Now at Naturopathy tech. It gives 1 :yuck: and 2 :mad: plus -1% to :food: and -2% :hammers: base values.

The rest of the Individual Diseases are scaled from here. With Plague being the worst and it's entry level is +900 Disease and the Tech Sedentary Lifestyle. It gives 10 :yuck:, 10 :mad:, -10% :food:, -12%:hammers:, and -12%:gold:. Yield modifiers are applied to the Base value of all 3 categories; :food::hammers::gold:.

I kept these levels low because they are cumulative , the Higher the Disease level which increases the number of Diseases introduced makes this so. If you have every Disease active with all conditions met (several Pest levels need to be activated which is tied to City Pop levels) your total -% for :food: can reach -75% of your Base :food: value. Total % of :hammers: can reach -97% :hammers: Base level. And Gold (which is more tricky) can reach -70%. But you will probably never see this big of a drop because :gold: relies on much more than :hammers:, trades, Civics, etc.

So as I stated in a previous post actual game play from new games and somewhat from older save games will help in determining if these levels (% penalties) are too light, too heavy, or just right. I can not run enough games myself to say what is the Precise %'s needed. And Raxo you endgame save is really rather skewed for giving any reliable feedback. You had No AI, so your input is skewed accordingly. You need to play a normal game at what ever Handicap, GS, Options used to give reliable feedback Please.

Hope this helps you understand better Septimius. I'm sure I left out something else.

.
 
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I'm more at "viva la revolution side"
Do you know why archeologists don't use shovels? It would certainly remove the dirt quicker. Or why the "American Revolution" (letting the loyalists emigrate to Canada) was more successful than the French Revolution (off with their heads) in the long run?

There is a more mathematical treatment about these phenomena described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_ratio - what you are asking for (quick and strong "corrections") is the "underdamped case" that is known to produce oscillations that will last a lot longer than anything else - you will get to the finishing line last that way, even if you leave the current (perhaps undesirable) point the fastest.

Edit: The terms "American Revolution" and "loyalists" (for the colonists supporting the British crown) is used in the same manner by Wikipedia.
 
Actually it was not removed but the way it was introduced and built up was. Also the Heavy amounts of crime associated with it were scaled per tourism level. All levels of Tourism do not give +10 Crime any more. That was insane.

Tourism IS removed from the prehistoric era. Last time I checked, you needed Sedentary Lifestyle to unlock the first level of tourism.
 
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