Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

They will attack almost anything.
Actually, in my experience, musk ox very rarely attack my units.
Keep in mind that the aggression value for animals does increase for each level up the animal get, so a lvl 4 musk ox is far more aggressive than a lvl 1 musk ox.
This is a feature I like, though it can lead to some funny/unrealistic animal behaviour for some species.
Long time ago all animals were predators even pigeons and ducks. But too many players and even modders hated getting a wounded mil unit killed by a duck. So Dancing Hoskuld (DH for short) the author of Subdued Animals made changes. In fact he's made several changes since this was incorporated into the Mod.
I made many animals unable to attack in rev. 9129, DH wasn't all that involved in the animal team split adjustments, it was a project mainly driven by TB and me.
There are bigger concerns than this
100% agree.
 
But too many players and even modders hated getting a wounded mil unit killed by a duck.

Sorry, there is only one game where it's acceptable to have your civilians minding their business and then getting suddenly killed by a duck.

100% agree.

To me it looks like simulating an immersive and believable wildlife, as noted by Thunderbrd, seems to be a pretty big concern of the mod.

Anyways, it's not a problem to have your squad of berry pickers wiped out by a herd of musk oxes. What is really infuriating is the game telling you beforehand "Don't worry. Those animal are passive. Like ducks and seagulls."

If they aggressiveness really can't be toned down, at least label them as neutral to avoid giving the same unpleasant surprise to future players.
 
What is really infuriating is the game telling you beforehand "Don't worry. Those animal are passive. Like ducks and seagulls."
The animal 'teams' are not telling the player whether they can be trusted to be safe or not. Hippos are herbivores and they are one of the most aggressive animals on the planet. All the animal teams are composed for is to define which animals tend to attack which other animals, or which ones they need to consider enemies to be feared at least. Do not misconstrue the rosters of these animal teams to mean 'harmless to man' or not.
 
The animal 'teams' are not telling the player whether they can be trusted to be safe or not. Hippos are herbivores and they are one of the most aggressive animals on the planet.

Except their team is not called "Herbivores". It says "Passive animals". I think the pedia even uses the term "Preys" for the team.

Hippos are anything but passive.
 
Except their team is not called "Herbivores". It says "Passive animals". I think the pedia even uses the term "Preys" for the team.

Hippos are anything but passive.
We should probably consider renaming the 'passive' group. This continues to come up as a result of that. Not all passive are herbivores... it's just that they don't eat other animals and when they attack it's only because that's how they tend to defend themselves is through massive aggression. They are placed in that group as a result of where they are in the food chain. Not all 'herbivores' if we called them that, would be 'herbivores' either.
 
Actually, in my experience, musk ox very rarely attack my units.
They do in my games. But I don't use Size Matters either.
 
Sorry, there is only one game where it's acceptable to have your civilians minding their business and then getting suddenly killed by a duck.
Sorry but this is a Mod. Different things happen in a Mod. Just sayin'.
 
We should probably consider renaming the 'passive' group.

What about Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Consumers?

Or Preys, Predators and Apex Predators.

when they attack it's only because that's how they tend to defend themselves is through massive aggression

Hippos attacking people who mistakenly enter their territory does not count as an aggression on the hippo's part.

It's more like a stealth defense.

But I don't think Hippos are aggressive in the sense that they will come after me while I'm standing in the savana with no rivers in sight.

So I think Hippos should be coded to 1) Have some invisibility 2) Always stay on tiles next to rivers 3) Go after any foreign life form who also stands next to their riverm

Fot Musk Oxes, I'm no expert but I don't think they go out of their way to kill humans either (like it happened in my game). And I have yet to see any of my units fall victim to stealth defense from any herbivore.
 
2) Always stay on tiles next to rivers
Not currently possible. There are a large number of animals we would like to control that way but we can't with the given system.

Hippos are the second biggest killers of humans in Africa. Only humans kill more humans.
 
Fall From Heaven's very first mission had giant spiders, which are described camping on forests and attacking units that get too close.

Otherwise, what about making them unmovable? A herd of hippos never leaving its tile is more believable and immersive than seeing that same herd climbing up hills in search for preys.

Hippos are the second biggest killers of humans in Africa. Only humans kill more humans.

Hippos murder mostly civilians who wander into their rivers. They don't murder people out on safaris. To represent this, you could have food/pop loss events in cities close to hippo spawn areas, which become likelier with buildings such as Bathing Ritual and River Port, or farm improvements.



Another thing: Perfect Mongoose never generates ice terrain, so you can't build Inuit culture. I suggest changing all Ice terrain requirements to either Tundra or Ice-on-water.
 
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Sorry, there is only one game where it's acceptable to have your civilians minding their business and then getting suddenly killed by a duck.
That can currently happen in C2C, but the duck would have to survive enough attacks through withdrawal to level up and get the feral state (promotion). This will no longer be seen as a problem when worker and other special units gets a small strength stat (planned change).
Except their team is not called "Herbivores". It says "Passive animals". I think the pedia even uses the term "Preys" for the team.

Hippos are anything but passive.
Predators, Beasts and Creatures, are the main terms I coined for them, miscommunication might have been the cause for whoever wrote the pedia text to present that team as completely harmless.
There are completely harmless predators (Arctic Fox, Hawk) and beast (Barred Owl, American Black Bear), while there are quite dangerous creatures (Hippopotamus, Cape Buffalo).

You yourself stated the argument for why the team should be set up like this:
To me it looks like simulating an immersive and believable wildlife.
Hippos, Musk Ox and Buffaloes very seldom attack (or have to defend against) birds, small critters, or other kind of game animal, while they often are aggressive towards predators or other dangerous beasts that encroach on their territory.
They do in my games. But I don't use Size Matters either.
Do you use the "reckless animals" game option?
It makes all animals that can attack very aggressive and equally so.
Another thing: Perfect Mongoose never generates ice terrain, so you can't build Inuit culture. I suggest changing all Ice terrain requirements to either Tundra or Ice-on-water.
That shortcoming in the PM map has annoyed me too, and is one of the many reasons why I made the World map-script.
The World mapscript generate Ice terrain.
 
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You don't HAVE to settle on the spot you start in. I usually scout around for a few turns if I'm not impressed with my starting location.

I just wish we could see the food resources BEFORE researching gathering. It would be natural for humans to choose where to settle based on available food.
 
That can currently happen in C2C, but the duck would have to survive enough attacks through withdrawal to level up and get the feral state (promotion). This will no longer be seen as a problem when worker and other special units gets a small strength stat (planned change).
Predators, Beasts and Creatures, are the main terms I coined for them, miscommunication might have been the cause for whoever wrote the pedia text to present that team as completely harmless.
There are completely harmless predators (Arctic Fox, Hawk) and beast (Barred Owl, American Black Bear), while there are quite dangerous creatures (Hippopotamus, Cape Buffalo).

You yourself stated the argument for why the team should be set up like this:

Hippos, Musk Ox and Buffaloes very seldom attack (or have to defend against) birds, small critters, or other kind of game animal, while they often are aggressive towards predators or other dangerous beasts that encroach on their territory.
Do you use the "reckless animals" game option?
It makes all animals that can attack very aggressive and equally so.
That shortcoming in the PM map has annoyed me too, and is one of the many reasons why I made the World map-script.
The World mapscript generate Ice terrain.
All very well put.
I just wish we could see the food resources BEFORE researching gathering. It would be natural for humans to choose where to settle based on available food.
Once we get the nomadic start setup, you'll be long past gathering by the time you can even settle a plot.
 
Do you use the "reckless animals" game option?
It makes all animals that can attack very aggressive and equally so.
I do use it a lot. Not always but I do like it that way.
 
Once we get the nomadic start setup, you'll be long past gathering by the time you can even settle a plot.
I'm really on the fence over this.
 
I'm really on the fence over this.

Once they get the nomadic start setup, you'll be long past settling by the time you can even build a fence.

Once we get the nomadic start setup, you'll be long past gathering by the time you can even settle a plot.

Cool, and good.

Talking about cool, shouldn't igloos give free Cold Adaptation promotion? Or some other way for civilizations living in harsh climates to train units already adapted to them.
 
It's the Whole Nomadic Start thing that I'm not decided on. I have reservations about this Big change, If and When it ever comes into being. The IF and When are major points.
 
Implementation and upkeep to start. Very ambitious project.

Also I really Like the way the game starts now.

But I'm more concerned about how it Ends than making it start differently.

The Later Eras are still a WIP and nowhere near finished imhpo. In fact I'm leaning towards a reduction of the later eras to help this mod be more playable. As it currently stands by the time you get thru Information Era to Nanotach the game is a wash. If we can get to and play thru some of these late Eras with the game still having a purpose left, then maybe this ambitious Nomad Start project might make sense. Right now it does not for me.

And finally this, there is No guarantee that there will be a capable C++ or Python modder(s) still around to do the coding, if and when it ever gets started. Real Life always makes such Projects like this very uncertain. And I'm not going to start learning C++ or Python at my age either.
 
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