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Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't think they should be free... I mean it's an operation that a city needs to setup rather than an automatic derivative effect. Collection stations should be built with production like any other building. That said, it seems odd that one landfill would serve the entire nation. I'd rather see 1 landfill allow say, 3 (then scaled by mapsize) collection stations, potentially including one that can go in the same city which would cut down on the actual impact of the landfill.

    Whether players need to build them or not is a matter of game balance factors to play about with at that stage of the game we haven't spent much time focusing deep on balance issues.
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    As they are now, as stated earlier, no one in their right mind builds them ever! The mechanic I have seen elsewhere and what I remember from early discussions was along the lines of one building provides the infrastructure in all cities but has a larger effect in the city it is built. The Granary Reserve is the earliest one we have in C2C, once you have the base building (granary) in enough cities you can build the infrastructure building (National Wonder) in a new city getting the granery free in all new (and conquered) cities. It reflects organization levels and efficiency (dang, I have forgotten the phrase, "something of scale"?) whereby it is slightly more expensive in one city to make it cheaper in all cities. All the cost is born in the city that builds the NW in exchange for the main benefit occurring in all cities.
     
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  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    What are the buildings it enables to be built? The stats on those should be all positive. If they are also rather negative, then this comment makes sense. I mean I can see them costing a bit since its a social service program. But they should be pretty effective at tackling the problem garbage would represent in population and industry-generated disease, unhealth and unhappiness.

    Strikes me a bit as the opposite. Like the way a nuclear waste facility is necessary for nuclear power plants, I would think a landfill would enable collection stations. The landfill is put somewhere that can handle it but sucks to have in the city, but enables the collection of garbage elsewhere and those reduce unhealth, disease, unhappiness etc...

    Thing is, a lot of landfills are actually local so I'm unsure either of these mechanisms quite fits the RL modelling very well.
     
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  4. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Prince

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    What does the "pangea breaker" option do? I assumed it ensures that continents aren't too close that they morph together, but with the option on, I keep seeing continents connected by narrow land bridges and coastal tiles.
     
  5. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Pangea breaker is, in a metaphorical sense, throwing meteors of different sizes at the largest continents in an attempt to break them into smaller continents. what it does is locate an appropriate center point that it draws a circle of a certain radius from and reduce the elevation map values by 75% within that circle.
    The world mapscript, which I wrote, borrowed this code idea from perfectMongoose, which again borrowed it from perfect world. Which one do you use?

    It is a bit more sophisticated in World mapscript, where it makes extra considerations in regards to the "start in old world" rule; in an attempt to ensure that there is a new world separated from the old world with at least sea terrain between them, the bigger the map size the easier it is for it to ensure that this rule is fulfilled and that there is at least ocean terrain between them. The world mapscript also does not do a hard 75% reduction inside the entire circle, it reduces the elevation less and less the further out from the center point it makes the reduction, this makes it so that there will be less peaks along the coast where land becomes ocean as the relative height difference is not huge between the inside of the circle and the outside, it also makes the ocean craters from he meteors less perfectly round, which would be visible as perfectly rounded coastlines here and there on the map.
     
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  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    None
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Ah, well... yeah it sucks then. I don't think the original design has been well held to. It's been evolved over time I think. Into something that isn't anything like what it was supposed to be.
     
  8. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    Hydro once said that he implented the Garbage Dock for example only as a trap building. Something that isnt worth building but only gives you a net negative (not to mention the wasted hammers). I for myself didnt really like that...
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It's an interesting trap building at least. And I can see how that works, a short term nearsighted benefit vs a long term backlash of a severe nature. The landfill though... as designed now is so obviously a bad call to build, and given how common it actually is in modern application in RL, that's probably not how it should actually be now.

    I'm not focusing on building redesigns myself at the moment but just throwing in my 2 cents and more on the subject for the sake of conversation in hopes someone decides to restructure it a bit. I'm currently purely focused on unit evaluations.
     
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  10. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    I don't mind a trap building, but does it make Waste to Sea a trap civic (that I would not like)? Or do you get the benefits of Waste to Sea without any building?

    I'd like there to be a local (or at least nearby) building you need before a city can benefit from Waste to Sea civic. If that's not the Garbage Dock, another building is needed imo.

    More relevantly, there are many many civic-enabled and (supposedly) -enabling buildings that give token benefit for a huge cost ie. don't seem worth it. In many cases they are the entirety of the civic option, making it effectively a 'trap option'. I really don't like that!
     
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  11. billw2015

    billw2015 King

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    I think the idea of a "trap" building is totally flawed. A lot of buildings are contextual, and you should only build them in some cases. A "trap" building is just one where the number of cases you should build it is zero. It doesn't change any equation when deciding if to build it, it just wastes the players (and our) time. Put another way, loads of buildings are "trap" buildings in loads of contexts. A new player will make a mistake with buildings that can sometimes be useful just as much as one that is never useful. The only difference is, when they find out that one of the buildings was actually just a "trap" they will be annoyed, particularly if they did the thing that any player should do when looking at something they can't figure out, which is spend time trying to work it out before asking someone.
     
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  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I think all of that is the point. What's not being discussed here is how after this experience, the player can feel proud of having determined something about the game environment that adds to their level of maturation as an experienced player.

    It is for reasons like these that I've asked for the player option to blacklist buildings on a local and national level so that they go into a different list entirely to be something we work on at some point soon.

    There ARE some few moments when a trap building is useful, IF you are wary of the consequences and understand you must only use it in a short term sense and be prepared to destroy it as soon as it's usefulness starts exhausting itself. This would be an even more advanced player move.

    One example is literally trap buildings, the ones that cause damage to enemy units in adjacent tiles to the city. They bring some fairly potent penalties and are ONLY something you'd want to build when the city is about to be under attack. Then if the city is later no longer on the front, better to get rid of it.

    Pretty much a lot of the design is asking the player to THINK as opposed to mindlessly just trying to put everything in place as fast as they can.
     
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  13. billw2015

    billw2015 King

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    Perhaps we differ on what trap building means then? I take it to mean a building which is *never* correct to build, in any context. Do we have those? If not my point is moot. If we do then I have more to say.
     
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  14. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    If strategies are being based around ctrl-Aing buildings, would it be at all possible to write AI for it? I stopped using that function when it was pointed out that the AI can't use it at all.
     
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  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I suppose the Landfill is right now... The Garbage Dock can be useful if used in an emergency and destroyed quickly after you get on top of the problem.

    Sure it's possible but I don't think that the cost in turn delays would be worth it. Perhaps once we get to a certain stage of development with the AI we might consider it but it's very easy to do very poorly and we have a lot we can improve without focusing on that at the moment. I'm not against it being done if it can be done so it doesn't cause a lot of turn time delay and doesn't cause them to make regularly very stupid backtracking decisions that would be better off handled by just training more property control or something along those lines. But in cases like the 'trap' buildings, I can see how if we could get them to only consider building them when under threat directly and destroy them after a time, something like that could be useful.
     
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  16. Osk21

    Osk21 Barbarian Killer and Beast Trainer & Solar System!

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    How many of you out there believe in the Relationship between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens, as far as present day humans? I do!
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I believe we have almost sufficiently shown enough evidence to put any debate to bed that we did interbreed with them and can often trace the genetics of some modern people back to Neanderthal stock.
     
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  18. Osk21

    Osk21 Barbarian Killer and Beast Trainer & Solar System!

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    I certainly think so. I read the book LUCY when I was very young. By David Johannson a Contemporary of the Leakey's
     
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  19. Osk21

    Osk21 Barbarian Killer and Beast Trainer & Solar System!

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    I am also fascinated by the idea of a Borg, from Star Trek.
     
  20. Esfera

    Esfera Chieftain

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    If I remember correctly Eurasian people have around 1% Neanderthal DNA, we South Europeans have as much as 4% Neanderthal DNA.
    I don't know how accurate that percentage is, I think it may be higher because our current biology doesn't know the true insights of most of our DNA code and lines of it that used to be called 'junk DNA' were recently discovered to be quite revelevant for things like your facial features.


    In Later Eras we have Nanorobot Swarms that behave just like the Borg, just smaller :)
     
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