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Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    True but generally speaking, according to the unit upgrade chain concept, the differentiation between the knight and this unit will be the intent to dismount to fight vs the intent to stay mounted to fight. They may even wear similar armors but the difference in intent should adjust the consideration as to how those armors are arranged.

    It's possible that some of the arts on these units will be adjusted for better clarity.

    Well then we can't keep calling the unit 'mailed' since that's an ambiguity that certainly isn't intentional here. You suggested 'Plate Cavalry' and that sounds about right.
     
  2. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Except they never wore that type of armor in an actual battle. With that being said I think your looking for a non-dismountable to exist at the same time as the knight. In fact there were dedicated cavalry units at that time that didn't dismount and they were horse archers. You could simply make a heavy horse archer for that era.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Horse archers are a whole different line entirely. There were also units that fought hand to hand from horseback. I realize knights classically did that too but the term here has evolved from the dismounting line that mostly just uses the mounts to get from one place to another to avoid exhaustion and increase maneuverability.

    I may well decide to make a heavier horse archer though... that might be interesting.

    EDIT: I probably won't right away but I do see a good point(s) for such a unit to be added, perhaps even 2 versions, one for the longbow and one for the heavy crossbow. They could granulate the upgrade tree a bit.

    Question: Should the dismounting fighter, rather than being the Knight, be named Heavy Mounted Infantry? (We already have Light then Medium before this point) And then just make the Plate Cavalry instead Knights? There would be a small change in Unitcombats to accommodate that adjustment but I'm thinking that might flow a little better with the classic concept of the knight.

    Yeah, that's going to take a bit of reworking a few things here but I was looking at this today anyhow...

    EDIT AGAIN: This actually corrects a few other issues here so that's pretty cool.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  4. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    So let me get this straight in the mod the cavalry line has three variants skirmish, dismountable, and strictly cavalry? Does that mean when the cavalry line begins the below is true?

    Horseman = strictly cavalry

    Melee Chariot = dismountable

    Chariot Archer = skirmish
     
  5. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    This discussion reminds me of the educational videos made by the youtuber shadversity, a somewhat corny medieval enthusiast that makes pretty solid videos on the subject.

    Mail
    Plate
    Gambeson
    Medieval Warfare
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    The way it is now is not fully aligned with the plans that have formed around this stuff though this discussion has furthered some of the planning in design and it was very well timed to have this discussion considering I was working on the combat classes.

    The current planned lines:
    Code:
    Dismount Fighters: Horse Riders (x17)                         -> Mounted Infantry (x34) -> Medium Mounted Infantry (x42) -> Heavy Mounted Infantry (x47)    -> Dragoons (x55) (can upgrade to Cavalry OR) -> Trench Cavalry (x72)
    Mounted Light:                                       \-> Horsemen (x26) -> Light Cavalry (x35)                                                                                               ->Lancers (x52) (can upgrade to Cavalry)                          /
    Mounted Heavy:                                                                                                       \->                 Heavy Cavalry (x42)                             -> Knights (x48) -> Carabiniers (x55) (can upgrade to Cavalry)    /
    Mounted Distance:                                                                    Horse Archers (x35) ->Horse Crossbowmen (x39)                                            ->Curiassiers(x52)                         ->Cavalry (x60)           - /(to Trench Cav)
    Drawn:                      Chariot Archers(x23)(to Horse Archer or Camel Archer or Chariot)
                                     Early Chariot (x23)               -> Chariots(x29) -> Carroballista (x36)->War Wagon (x37)
    Armored Transport:                                                                                                                                         \                                                 ->Siege Wagon(x52)                   ->Covered Wagons (x62) -> Military Trucks (x69)
    
    And it does carry on beyond this of course. There's also elephant and camel lines to consider and most of the alt mounted units to fall in here somewhere using these as template bases.

    The mounted light and heavy aren't expected to be fighting on foot but the dismounted are mostly just using the mounts to increase mobility to respond to threats faster and to help chase after retreating foes and to help with retreating themselves if they need it. They are actually largely a defensive line intended to escort others when needed as well. As a result of fighting on foot they do get plot and other defense modifiers,whereas most of the mounted don't, but the mounted do get some strong attacking and withdrawal bonuses that far exceed those of the defensive mounted units.

    Distance mounted are very good at hit and run, the best of the bunch at that. They can also distance attack so can be used very strong by never actually getting into close engagement range, just approaching, launching a distance attack, then moving away, or can be very strong at helping with surround tactics.

    Drawn will be getting not only their standard anti-melee fare but will be adding some combat modifiers simply for being on a route when they fight. They can be fair city defenders and good for sending as a reactionary defense force, despite not getting defense bonuses, because cities are automatically routed plots and being as strong as they are against melee, it helps there too against a lot of what would try to attack a city. Some are flat out good at attacking city gates as well.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  7. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Why not make the knight a dismount fighter? Historically knights often times chose to dismount and fight. Then just have the mounted heavy line start with the carabiniers.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I had it that way but just talked myself out of it today because the classic perception of a knight in battle is on horseback and if it's Heavy Mounted Infantry or Plate Cavalry, I think I'd prefer to keep the Heavy Mounted Infantry name instead so that it's a little more 'armor variable' for the equipment mod, and the Knight gets to be more what you'd classically think of them as. It also works better with the tech tree as it is now and resolved a few little kinks in that segment of the chart.
     
  9. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    IDK but I do agree that the midieval era has the most kinks compared to the other eras.
     
  10. jediknightx

    jediknightx Chieftain

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    I have the complete edition of civ 4 but i dont know why crash on game launch... any idea..?
     
  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Did you get 3.19 patch for BTS?

    If yes then reinstall game.
     
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    When you say "crash on game launch", do you mean when you try to launch Caveman2Cosoms Mod? If so, the Mod on initial loading takes a bit of time. It is normal for the screen to go back to desktop like it "closed" or "crashed". It is just loading in the background. Wait awhile after you "launch the mod" to see if the Mod's loading screen appears. Depending upon Computer this can take several minutes on the Initial launch of C2C.

    Now If you have played C2C before then the question becomes where did you place the Mod? As stated do not put the Mod in My Documents. Also Never overwrite an older version of C2C with a newer version. Always delete the Old and then copy in the new.
    And finally give as much details as you can about how you installed the mod and what you saw during the loading process when you attempted to play it. it is All in the Details. Otherwise we have to guess. Just like my fellow teammate raxo2222 had to do in the post before mine.
     
  13. Esfera

    Esfera Chieftain

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    It seems like several tiles in one of my heavily nuked continents are turning into taiga tiles.
    Fallout seems to trigger a random terraformation of tiles into taiga, is this intended? Because it accurately reflect Nuclear Winter to an extent.
     
  14. dbiss17

    dbiss17 Chieftain

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    Hey guys - I may have encountered a small bug I would like to report. When I open up the world builder to make a scenario, there are a large number of resources I am not able to place on the map - it just wont let me do it. I am not talking about trying to place crabs on a grassland tile. What I mean is I can place iron on one hill, and not another, and I can place some resources no where at all... I am using an SVN download of C2C, which I downloaded a couple days ago. Thoughts on what could be causing this?
     
  15. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Maybe the new world builder is asking the dll if the plot is valid?
    That the old world builder had a custom valid evaluation code in python instead of using the general one in the dll.
    So:
    Coconut can only be placed on coastal land, that are lush or coastal land that are grassland/muddy/plains if there's a Savanna/Jungle/tallGrass/floodPlains there.
    Banana can only be placed on jungle that is on grass/lush/muddy terrains.
    etc.
    Perhaps it then also consider the minimum distance between similar bonuses, not sure about that.

    I guess the world builder should only use plot type restrictions (plot type = water/flatland/hill/peak); what's the general opinion on that?
    It should at the very least restrict land bonuses to land and water bonuses to water.

    What about
    • Hill/peak/flatland restrictions?
    • Terrain and feature restrictions?
    • Min/max latitude and minimum area size (size of landmass or water body)?
    • Coastal only restriction?
    • Not on riverside restriction?
    Minimum distance to other resources should be ignored imo.

    I'll look into what's the actual current case after the weekend.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Perhaps this is all the worldbuilder should be filtering for to restrict, given that WB is such a much more direct intentional setting building tool. I would think that if you wanted to make some crazy world where pineapples only grow in the arctic, or there is one singular huge wide deposit of iron in a tight cluster in the center of the map, you perhaps should be able to in WB.
     
  17. MattCA

    MattCA Warlord

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    I'm lookin at the new WBer and I found a button called Check Prerequisites for Multiple Tiles Mode. It seems to stop me from placing resources in some or all places for some bonuses.
     
  18. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Maybe you're placing refined resource bonuses on the map? The refined resources don't have any 3d art, so they appear invisible when placed on a tile. They generally aren't meant to be placed on the map since they are resources made by manufacturing buildings. Only raw resources can appear on the map with 3d art. In the world builder if the resource you are going to place has a white background on its icon then it is a manufactured resource. If the resource icon has just the generic blue background then it is just a raw resource, only use those.
     
  19. dbiss17

    dbiss17 Chieftain

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    All I can say is that its very random, to the point of which I can find no patterns that make any sense. Iron - if I make 50 grass hills I can place iron on some of them and not others, sometimes next to each other some times not. It seems very random and some resources seem to be more badly effect than others. I am not trying to put corn on snow or fish in the desert lol... just want place normal resources in normal places and it wont let me.
     
  20. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Yeah, turn off that option and you can place any bonus anywhere (except land bonus on water or the opposite).

    Untitled-1.jpg

    Nothing for me to look into here afaics.
    Edit: Changed the tooltip text for that button to be less ambiguous.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020

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