Caveman2Cosmos v43 Player Guide

[Galadrion]

How to steal cities from another civilization without war declaration?

Another route, and one which DOES allow you to capture the other civilization's base culture. Note that this method almost requires you to target a city which borders on your own civ.

(1) Build a considerable number of your best available hidden nationality units, particularly those along the Thief/Rogue/Burglar line. Optimize their promotions for infiltration and disguise - the idea is to make them as close to impossible for the opponent to spot or investigate.

(2) Send these HN units to the target city, and once they arrive, infiltrate the city. If the infiltration is successful, your Thief/Rogue/Burglar/whatever will be returned to your capital and you will get a boost to your espionage points against the opposing civ. You should immediately send any returned criminals back to the target city and do it again, and again, and again... The concept here is to build up your espionage total against the target as quickly as possible and to continue building it.

(3) Once you think you have enough criminals on this treadmill, build several spies. First promotion should be Loyalty (so any captured spies won't give you a diplomatic hit), second should be Mobility (to take full advantage of roads and such to get the spy to the target as quickly as possible). After those promotions, use your best judgement on subsequent promos. Those two are the important ones for the spies.

(4) As each spy comes on-line, send it to target city. Unlike your criminals, you will be parking your spies in the city to build up to the maximum bonus. Once your spy reaches his/her maximum preparation bonus, use him/her to spread your culture to the city. Again, your spy should return to your capital - immediately send him/her back to the target city and repeat.

In the case of a well-established target city, you'll probably end up with five to ten spies (or even more), with four to six criminals per spy, all on these complementary treadmills, building up and spending espionage points and putting more and more of your culture into the target city. After a while, the city will begin suffering rebellions and it will eventually revolt and join your empire, most likely without the other civ declaring war.

The advantage of using your criminals in this manner rather than parking them in the target city is that, once the city does flip, you haven't had criminals parked in the city for ages, building up crime, so it's much simpler to bring any unrest/crime back under control. (Building up crime in an enemy city is much more a tactic for when you intend to destroy the city, not capture it. Cleaning up the mess afterwards when you use a crime offensive can be a real pain.) Also, once the city flips, you have all those spies and criminals available to switch to your next target city...

 

[cammcken]

@Galadrion I understand your approach, but why not promote some spies with Forment, and contribute their minus Culture Revolt Protection?

@Discussion

This diplomatic penalty for refusing to liberate shouldn't be greater than if a player declared war and gained the city through open war.

And, remind me, is there an option to examine a city upon capture before choosing whether to keep or raze it?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And, remind me, is there an option to examine a city upon capture before choosing whether to keep or raze it?

You should always be asked that question upon capture.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

2 Questions:

1. How much does Win for Losing effect the early game? I fell because of the low pop # of the early game, since win for losing is based on ratios it might have too big of an effect?
2. Is the outbreaks and afflictions setting meant to be used it all yet? Do you want people to test it out for bug-testing purposes, or should I not enable it at all?

 

[Thunderbrd]

This diplomatic penalty for refusing to liberate shouldn't be greater than if a player declared war and gained the city through open war.

I'm not so sure. The underhanded nature of it could make it more offensive.

1. How much does Win for Losing effect the early game? I fell because of the low pop # of the early game, since win for losing is based on ratios it might have too big of an effect?

It can be a bit severe in the beginning. I've got it on the task list to smooth that over a bit.

2. Is the outbreaks and afflictions setting meant to be used it all yet? Do you want people to test it out for bug-testing purposes, or should I not enable it at all?

Not quite yet, no.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

@TB thanks for the quick response.

I've decided to try out Win for Losing (as well as the new anti-beeline option). Will report back if anything seems too off .

 

[mosesj]

yeah I'm giving WFl a try as well. It's a little tricky to tell how much it's actually helping out the AI, but a three city in the middle of taiga civ was researching monarchy so I guess it was doing its job. I'm pretty gigantic so I'm really just aiding the other civs in the classical era

 

[GiuseppeIII]

Sorry, I have a few more questions. In game going into the BUG options menu I have a few questions on some of the options and what is recommended and what is recommended by @Tb and others. If there was a rundown on all of the options that would be amazing, but in particular the options I am most curios about are:

General Tab

• Fractional Movement Points: Just kind of confused on this one and the tool tip didn't really help me understand...
• The Leader head Icons section. What do you guys think of the options in here. I personally think that having them on is cooler; the more information the better. However, while I think most people would be fine with having the Worst Enemy and Defensive Pacts checked, I am especially curios as to what you all think of the Hidden Attitude option. Does it feel like cheating or does it give the player a substantial advantage?
• Minimize AI turn time. How much does this improve turn times on average? and is the graphical downgrade worth the speedup?

The Entire RevDCM Menu

• Interface options. Is display detailed AI attitude info the same as the hidden attitude option from the general tab? If so why is there two of them? and if not what are the differences?
• Siege Options: I'm guessing ranged bombardment should be on? Not exactly what this does and if it should be enabled or not?
• Battle Options: Battlefield Effects sounds super interesting, however I was wondering if the effect fades over time. If it did the option could be viable, however if it didn't the entire world would soon just turn into battlefield terrain. Archer Bombard: seems like a good option. Not exactly sure what it does or if I should have it enabled or not? I'm guessing stack attack shouldn't be enabled especially with all the new unique units in C2C?
• Air-force Options: Active Fighter Defense, Fighter Engagement, and Enhanced Air Bombardment: not exactly sure what these do and if I should have them enabled or not?
• IDW Options: Both IDW enabled and Emergency Draft sound cool but also sound like they could effect the game in big ways. How big of an impact do these two options have and should they be enabled.
• Influence Options: what are the suggested options here??
• Spy Options: All three items here sound super interesting. Just unsure about balancing if I should enable these?
• Religion Options: Holy City Relocation: seems a like an interesting idea. Just wondering about general consensus
• BarbCiv Options: What is the suggested value for min city pop
• New World Options: This seems super super interesting especially if played with the all civs start on old world for the map options. Is this balanced at all and if so what are the recommended values
• BarbCivStrength Settings: Not sure of recommended values here either. And am sort of confused by the New World Bonuses options tool tip.

Caveman2Cosmos Tab

• RoM Options: Does anyone find the resource display useful? RoM Tech tree era colors: what are these and should I use them?
• Flexible Difficulty: Super awesome options, slightly confused by AI Use Flexible Difficulty option, why wouldn't they be using it?
• Game Settings: Defender Withdraw: why can this be enabled outside of the Tbs combat mod?
• Resource depletion: Seems like an interesting idea... is it balanced at all though?
• Better Air Interception: Seems like a good option, should I have it enabled?
• Battlefield Promotions: I like the idea just not sure if it is balanced? Do AI's get the benefit as well? Does anyone use this option?
• Dynamic XP: Another awesome idea, just wondering if it is balanced and if I should use it?
• War Prizes: Same as above
• Realistic Diplomacy: Same as above.
• No storms: why would somebody use this?
• Multiple Religion Spread: Another awesome idea, just wondering if it is balanced and if I should use it?.
• Re-base Range: What would a suggested value here be?
• Terrain Damage: Another awesome idea, just wondering if it is balanced and if I should use it?.
• Terra-forming: Same as above
• Reforestation: Same as above
• Sea Tunnels: Same as above
• No auto corporation founding: Isn't this the same as the advanced corporation option from the new game screen? If so why is there two of them? and if not what are the differences?

Diplomacy Tab

• Does can establish alliance refer to a permanent alliance? Also many of the options here seem to also be options in the new game menu. If so why is there two of them? and if not what are the differences?

Automations:

• Everything here seems pretty self explanatory though also kind of complicated. Is there any suggested values that should be used here.

Map

• Same as above besides what is mapfinder???

City Screen

• Same as above

Advisers

• Same as above

Alerts

• Same as above

Scoreboard

• Same as above besides does anyone use a cool column order and what does war mobilization icons mean exactly?

Clock

• Same as above besides what is NJAGC and what does it do?

Plot List

• Slightly confused by this entire tab and its purpose

Odds

• I have no idea what is going on here...

Unit Naming

• Super interesting idea, not sure if up to date. However if it does work does anyone have a interesting naming convention?

Logging

• What settings should I use here so that if I every run into a bug or a problem in the mod I can send my save game in?

System

• Same as above

Credits

• Self Explanatory

Overall I think that there are in many spots too many options or that the options are not explained well enough. Some of the options seem as it they are abandoned or incredibly unbalanced. This would be fine if it was told to the player or perhaps off in a separate section. Additionally some of the options seem incredibly important and should be highlighted/made known to the player through a lot of the less important options. Perhaps have a basic and advanced section?

Sorry about the long wall of text. I've wanted to know more specifics about these options for a long time. I'm one of those people who likes to make sure that there game is perfect before I begin playing. Thanks for reading through all of this and (maybe) responding!​

 

[Galadrion]

@Galadrion I understand your approach, but why not promote some spies with Forment, and contribute their minus Culture Revolt Protection?

This diplomatic penalty for refusing to liberate shouldn't be greater than if a player declared war and gained the city through open war.

And, remind me, is there an option to examine a city upon capture before choosing whether to keep or raze it?

Hm. I've never bothered with Foment, so I can't really comment about it. It sounds like it would be useful, but for the way I approach this tactic, Loyalty and Mobility are fairly useful. Foment sounds like it would be a useful third option.

I don't particularly worry about any diplo penalty, since I'm not usually the one refusing to liberate a city. I also don't tend to demand the other civ liberate their city to me - I just keep increasing the pressure this method generates. Sooner or later, the city revolts. The other leader doesn't have much of an option for refusal.

As for checking the city to decide about keep/raze... well, when I'm using this method, I'm usually checking the city in question fairly frequently. (A big side benefit of using espionage methods - I can look at the target city pretty easily.)

 

[Toffer90]

@GiuseppeIII : Most of these options are subjective and you will just have to try em out for yourself.

Battlefield Promotions: An option for those who like that some units get more promotions than what they deserve.
I don't like it because it makes it easier to get more super units, the AI is not as good at accumulating super units as the human player, and this option exaggerate the divide between AI and human players in this area.

No storms: The graphic is ugly and it makes it possible to see what land features are hidden under the dark unexplored areas. Sometimes storms get stuck and won't disappear.
It doesn't make sense to let such short phenomenas be visible factors in a game like civ, especially not when one storm can last for several turns, and can come and go over any tile completely randomly without following any realistic logic.

Terrain Damage: This option is quite nice, the AI understands it pretty well.

Dynamic XP: I like this as it makes it harder to train super units.
100 battles where all battles has a 100% victory chance gives 100-300 exp without the option, with the option it would give something like 1-6 exp. only battles that carries a risk of losing your unit carries the reward of much exp.

 

[cammcken]

Hm. I've never bothered with Foment, so I can't really comment about it. It sounds like it would be useful, but for the way I approach this tactic, Loyalty and Mobility are fairly useful. Foment sounds like it would be a useful third option.

Typo! Typo! My mistake. I meant criminals. Promote some of the criminals with Foment and let them sit.

 

[Galadrion]

Typo! Typo! My mistake. I meant criminals. Promote some of the criminals with Foment and let them sit.

Ah. Well, when I'm using this tactic, I don't like to let the criminals sit in the target city - since I'm planning to take it over, I don't particularly want a huge crime buildup to deal with. As it is, with them constantly infiltrating the crime levels still build up uncomfortably - I often need to build a force of LE units to move in rapidly once the city flips to get the crime back under control before it becomes too much of a problem.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No storms: The graphic is ugly and it makes it possible to see what land features are hidden under the dark unexplored areas. Sometimes storms get stuck and won't disappear.
It doesn't make sense to let such short phenomenas be visible factors in a game like civ, especially not when one storm can last for several turns, and can come and go over any tile completely randomly without following any realistic logic.

No storms is also recommended because

1. storms slow turn times down as it affects path calculations
   
2. the AI thinks storms are a good place to hide and stay there until they sink! Or at least they did, this may have been fixed.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

@Thunderbrd Can confirm that WFL is very severe at the beginning of the game. At the start of the game, playing on immortal with flexible difficulty, I had ~8-10 research and ~40-50 TD and WFL. Not sure if the tech diffusion or win for lose is causing this, but something is going wrong here...

Not sure how tech diffusion could be the problem because this happened at the very start, but also not sure how win for lose could be the problem as everyone has only 1 city and 1 pop. Either way it was pretty unbalanced, and my brother and I (we were playing direct IP) were researching techs in 2 turns on snail.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Thunderbrd Can confirm that WFL is very severe at the beginning of the game. At the start of the game, playing on immortal with flexible difficulty, I had ~8-10 research and ~40-50 TD and WFL. Not sure if the tech diffusion or win for lose is causing this, but something is going wrong here...

Not sure how tech diffusion could be the problem because this happened at the very start, but also not sure how win for lose could be the problem as everyone has only 1 city and 1 pop. Either way it was pretty unbalanced, and my brother and I (we were playing direct IP) were researching techs in 2 turns on snail.

I agree and have told T-brd as much basically. WFL is too strong. And if you couple it with TD and stay behind the Game leading AI in either tech, pop, or # of cities (Yes all 3 of these can give you a bonus for being even 1 of each behind) you reap Huge rewards on the higher game difficulties. Even with everybody at only 1 city and 1 pop.

 

[Noriad2]

I haven't played with WFL yet but on deity/nightmare/"size matters" off, I don't understand why WFL is necessary. More cities increases upkeep considerably, so you need to set more cities to Build Wealth instead of Build Research. Bigger cities require more anticrime and education units which are expensive in upkeep (6 per turn per unit!) so you need to set more cities to Build Wealth instead of Build Research. I.e. if the economics of the game are propery balanced, WFL would be a natural effect as bigger cities and bigger empires effectively get money penalties which means you need to divert more of your research to money instead. Plus WFL is not a cool name.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I agree and have told T-brd as much basically. WFL is too strong. And if you couple it with TD and stay behind the Game leading AI in either tech, pop, or # of cities (Yes all 3 of these can give you a bonus for being even 1 of each behind) you reap Huge rewards on the higher game difficulties. Even with everybody at only 1 city and 1 pop.

In my opinion it is only a problem early and it "calms down" somewhere about Tribalism or your second city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I taken to leaving it Off.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In my opinion it is only a problem early and it "calms down" somewhere about Tribalism or your second city.

I would agree this is likely the issue. I almost think I should just have it not kick in until Ancient era is entered.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've updated the Player's Guide effectively enough for now I think. Let me know if you see anything off or out of place. I'll try to do a summary of some bug options later.