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Cavs or Cuirs?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pengu, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. Pengu

    Pengu Prince

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    I mostly play on emperor and my games almost look the same every time ending with a dom/conquest with cavs 1400-1600 AD. The thing is I guess I could do it earlier if I just went with cuirs instead but cavs just feels safer. By the time you would get cuirs the AI often has about the same techs as with cavs, pikes and longbows. And just cuirs vs pikes defending a city can hurt alot but with cavs there is no problem. And siege will take forever and defeats the purpose. So is it just a question of building even more cuirs to compensate and still get an earlier finish date?
     
  2. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    You can get Cuirs wayyyy earlier. Both are effective until Rifles, and both pretty much get owned by Rifles, so there isn't any great advantage there for Cavs. Sure they are better against Longbows and Pikes, but could probably take out a couple AIs with Cuirs in the time you spend teching to Rifling.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Cavalry are actually a significant step up. Cuirs are not ideal vs pikes in cities (where they'll have losing odds) or against hill longbows with CG II or especially III. They have losing odds on those attacks and the defending unit is cheaper at base and even moreso vs stacked bonus AI.

    However, as Izuul says, they're also available markedly earlier and that can make all the difference. Cuirs vs medieval are ludicrously better than cav vs rifle. With cuirs I'd recommend picking your individual battles carefully, only slamming into lightly garrisoned cities or flatland ones. Take some good cities from AI then cap it quickly to move onto the next.

    If you get cavalry vs pre-rifling you can absolutely smoke the AI. Don't forget to draft too; if you can build cavalry you can draft rifles. You need units to garrison captured cities and rifles handled well can augment your offense as well. Drafts aren't costly, so when you really want to spam draft rifles AND whip/hammer cavalry.
     
  4. Pengu

    Pengu Prince

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    TMIT: I have seen you videos and I know you love drafting rifles and combine them with cannons :)
    But unless the AI has reached rifling I prefer cavs only as it is so much faster.
    I'll try cuirs and try to select what I attack with more care.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    My point is that if you have cavalry, you have nationalism and rifling. You cand build/whip cavs and still draft.

    You do, after all, need to leave SOMETHING in captured cities...but you can always just send a stack o 10+ rifles and capture a city that way too.

    Drafting and whipping stack on different counters too, so less total :mad: than all one or the other. You can easily draft then 2 pop whip. I'm pretty sure you get more total :hammers: of units out that way by a wide margin.
     
  6. Gr8scott

    Gr8scott Warlord

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    I like to use Cuirs on the lightly defended cities and then use Cuirs+spies on the one or two toughest cities. I generally do the harder cities first with spies and then send the spies to the next victim. The spies are ready to go by the time the Cuirs clean up the other cities and make it over to the next Civ.

    No idea if this is an optimal approach or not though...just makes the timing work a little better.
     
  7. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Start with cuirs, use city capture gold + printing press bulb to get to rifling, upgrade your cuirs starting with the most highly promoted.
     
  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yeah, you are going to do a lot of damage with Curs on Emperor. You can pretty much run any land map with them. You can always shoot for Rifling to upgrade some later.
     
  9. babar

    babar King

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    I haven't been doing the curi/cav thing very long, but I've found wiping out the SoD with the help of siege to be good. You don't lose much time since you'll be engaging in the first few turns of the war, and you'll be left with a lot more horses to finish off everything else. I don't use espionage though, so that's probably better.

    Also although I would beeline cavalry, I think it's a waste of money to upgrade curis (except maybe for the very best ones, and then mainly for fun). Just churn out cavalry and use the remaining curis for clean up.
     
  10. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    It depends. If I'm playing as Spain, I often won't upgrade many curs, as they are useful in their own right even when you get to Cavalry. Otherwise, though, I'll usually upgrade. It's cheap, and the 3 extra strength makes a big difference.
     
  11. JoeyB98

    JoeyB98 King of Ohio

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    Cavs don't require Rifling, and they're an easy beeline. I sometimes get Cavs before some of the AI have longbows on Noble.
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Cavs need rifling in BTS.
     
  13. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    I think he meant to say cuirs not cavs ;)
     
  14. Ormur

    Ormur Prince

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    When I do this I usually go for cuirs and continue teching for rifling so I can upgrade to cavalry and then steel if I haven't managed to win just with them.

    Last game I played I had a very good cottage capital that I didn't whip and could power through those techs by itself while all the others whipped cuirs and cavalry (after building stables and theaters and AP temples/monasteries).
     
  15. Pengu

    Pengu Prince

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    Well,noble is another thing. I can have rifling before the AI get pikes or bows :)

    If I have cavs I can take out any stack the AI puts against me as I get winning odds on everything until they get rifling. With cuirs I loose alot of armies. I guess cuirs can be good if you feel the need to break out earlier to get more cities.

    I did try cuirs in my current game and I got a surprise at how much fast your army dies
    compared to with cavs. 15 cuirs won't get you far.
     
  16. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    no forges? ;)
     
  17. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    Cuirs first, then Cav later. Use spies in big culture cities. Also shoot for some GMs ahead of time to upgrade and power research. Getting at least 2 is pretty much guaranteed, especially when your 1st to Economics. And I disagree with Babar that upgrading is a waste of money. With good planning of GPP then Imo, it's easily the quickest way to accumulate highly promoted and instant units, the very second the tech becomes available. No whipping. No building. Just BOOM!
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    BOOM! 2 techs worth of gold + carrying cost of units that could have gone into deficit research to reach the military tech sooner + whip same/possibly more units out.

    It depends how much money you can get and on tech rate. Upgrading is useful but it's not like you'll be able to carry 30+ units and then upgrade them without considerable cost. Going from HA or even noobiphants to cuir isn't exactly cheap.
     
  19. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    Funny you used that number. In the current Washington game I upgraded exactly 30 HAs to Cuirs at 780 AD. Total cost? 5100:gold: which was pretty much what I got from 3 GMs. Additionally, I've been in Caste/Pacifism since I started my initial GA until present, another GA (Taj) and the unit maintenance fees weren't debilitating.

    Staying in Caste/Pacifism lets you generate more great people and you're not losing population and therefore empire wide research rate that would occur from whipping. You are very correct however that when whipping units you would most definitely reach the "key tech" quicker. So, during my 1st GA, I had 6 cities building HAs for around 10-11 turns. So that becomes your window, at least in my example.......whipping gives you a 10t head start to reach "MT" and......

    The challenge then lies in making that "quicker" translate into more units and then balance that with potential research and production......... Something that becomes more difficult to discern once you start conquering new cities. Brings lot's of questions into account. We're not ORG so maintenance has potential to become problematic, or at least a hassle. The whipped empire certainly couldn't reach Communism faster. Could it? Who knows.

    Imo, in most cases, so long as you have a few key wonders and stay in 2 key civics, you actually get better research via additional scientist bulbs and additional GM (which at this point are used to keep research at 100%).

    Edit: If this is untrue then someone else playing the Washington game can http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12048676#post12048676 accumulate more units and more research by the dates in my screen shots.......at which point I'd be glad to re-evaluate my game play preference and shoot for something more optimal! Like seriously, who doesn't want to improve?
     
  20. Ormur

    Ormur Prince

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    Forges too yeah, and actually libraries and universities in most too for Oxford. Might not be worth it all the time but in this game my capitol was producing 400 bpt and was responsible for 80% of my research even before I started whipping the periphery mercilessly.
     

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