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Cavs or Cuirs?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pengu, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    I learned in my Willy thread that oxford isnt a worthwhile wonder if you dont plan to go for space
     
  2. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    LoL. So not true man ^^. If you had to pick one youtuber to watch then watch AZ (only one worth watching imo). Check out his Mana Musa game here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j45rrZtu1Ks&feature=plcp .....he does a pretty early Deity win and guess what, he built the Oxford. Just play the map ^^.
     
  3. Kadazzle

    Kadazzle Emperor

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    I prefer Cuirs with Spies if you have an early tech lead and have the production capacity. Otherwise, waiting for Cavs (when you normally have Cannons) is easy combat.
     
  4. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Emperor

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    The point is that with deficit research on 5100 gold ( acting under the presumption that you have a non-tiny empire) you could tech for ages to get a BIG advantage.
    Moreover, using 30HA as prebuilds means your paying maintenance for them, and delaying vital infrastructure hurts your economy quite badly.
    Oxford is uber, no matter what the victory pursuit. (well maybe not pre 1000 AD conquest ;) )
     
  5. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    It slows down your break out. It is a crap wonder except in 2 cases. There very very rarely will be a map that even allows you to build enough Unis before attacking. Please read why unis, and Oxford stink before coming off like you know everything. Chris very rarely builds Oxford.
     
  6. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    LoL ^^. Look in the mirror funny guy. Ultimate Troll speaks fine wisdom again. Z ^^, always worth a laugh. That's why we love you. Oxford is definitely viable based upon the map. Play the map, not ZX zero wisdom and you'll do much better......obviously. :D.

    You use GM via trade missions. As in example take a look at my 2nd previous post... check out the link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12048676#post12048676 and you'll see, on Immortal, 30 HA ready to upgrade to Cuirs at 780 AD, which IMO is more than you would be able to get from straight whipping (at least on this map circumstances).
     
  7. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Another person who doesn't understand math strikes at me with my past time! Troll real man fun, but uni still just crap. Your hammers are better off building HA, or Cuirs or what ever crap unit you want to rush to late with.
     
  8. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Why choose? Why not use both? Get cannons/muskets/curs and go stomp an AI. When you're done with that you should be close to rifling, get it, and then drop science to 0 and win the game by building/upgrading to cavs and drafting rifles. Curs+cannons beat anything easily up to rifles. It still does okay on the offense but will lose on the defense to rifles. Cavalry are a HUGE step up. With flanking 2 they get what, 50%? 60% withdraw? Cav are almost OP. They will ROFLSTOMP over rifles no problem, with a little bit of cannon support, and they can even do fine against infantry, due to the high withdraw, they also completely own machineguns, which I think is stupid but that's how it works. I hate it when I have infantry and my enemy has cavalry, they really do so much better than you would expect them to. You basically need marines or tanks before you can completely outmatch them.
     
  9. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Emperor

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  10. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Emperor

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    Yes Unis suck, but OU doesn't.
    Paticularly in a low cities game (aka Deity).
     
  11. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    In general, I agree!! But you're not going to get me to believe Univ and Oxford always suck. In Pepe26 Gandhi game for example...... Will post over there a bit later with lots of screenies. Not difficult on that particular map to build lots of HAs, lots of great people, lots of upgrades, and still reach Chemistry uber fast, build some 2 turn Universities (PHI), and then a quick Oxford on your way to whatever.

    @ QQQQ

    Oops, I didn't ^^. Uni's do suck but quick work with whip/or hammer under PHI leaders and if stone is present Oxford isn't a horrible thing (like others have said, not you). I mean common, a 4-5 turn Oxford is most definitely worth it.
     
  12. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Upgrading HAs or Jumbos depends on what traits and cities i have.
    Phi allows for more great peoples and adding GMs in between scientists.
    Or if my cities have not that much food, but nice hammers it can be better pre-building units cos i cannot whip that much later.

    Another useful tactic is not upgrading all before i attack, but moving them along and upgrade as needed in captured cities.

    Now an opposite example, if i have Police State and good food, whipping out will be easy and i might rather keep gold for teching before and while fighting :)
    No right or wrong as usual, just situational.
     
  13. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    What did he do while I was gone that I lost my title?!
     
  14. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Seems to me that cseanny has shown to feasibility of oxford on the highest levels in a number of games. Obviously it's not the optimal strategy for a lot of maps. I seem to recall a steel Lib i na deity game not too long ago...
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Doing something and winning does not mean doing something is optimal. I've sword rushed on deity and basically ignored GPP for 150 turns with Toku and won. I don't think you're going to get a lot of people here saying that such a game was optimal! But, I won on deity so it "seems to me that I have shown to feasibility of sword rushes on the highest levels" :splat:.
     
  16. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    You are going to need to immensely strong land to get them out in a period of time where they will provide you something. Otherwise they are a complete waste of hammers that will never pay themselves off. You will be better off just running more specs with the pop, or building reseach, and wealth. If you are chopping into unis, and Oxford you are wasting a lot of very fast hammers. These hammers could have been used to build something that would provide you with much faster benefits, like a wonder earlier. Or units earlier that you could have attacked the AI with but you were to scared. People seriously need to realize that you can kick the teeth out of the Deity AI with Trebs even if you didn't bulb Eng in 400 BC. When you attack a weak AI purely to take his lane to whip more units out you are going to be able to snowball the game no matter what.

    My advice for all Monarch, and bellow players asking for help is always stop doing worthless crap, and just kill everyone with HA. Everyone seems to think I am trolling there when I am serious, well maybe I am a little. :lol: But I don't remember who else I have trolled, there has been to many to count. x]
     
  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Game context:

    We started in the tundra, with silver, and hatty to the north (the only viable way to explore) having no copper. We did not have copper to feasibly settle. We were toku.

    I struggle to do it on deity. It feels like a race against time. I often run out of money when I whip most of my cities down in medieval. Cuirassers are fast enough for that not to be as big of a deal, while rifle/cav drafts are both fast and rifles are cheap.

    How do you deal with castles? Bombard doesn't seem plausible, which means attacking into defenses or spies (in a time EP isn't easy to attain either). Seems like the only time medieval is viable in that era is backstabby or vs very soft AIs.

    So basically you stole my lines!!!!!!!!!!

    (A search for "horse archers exclusively" + my name might be interesting)
     
  18. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    It really is a race against time. But you can't go attacking a warmonger first, or some AI that already has Eng most of the time. You have to attack your weakest neighbor to get more land, and after that you should easily be able to whip enough Trebs, and other units to take cities in 2 turns. But after that you can easily fight someone who has Castles. The AI won't be whipping units every turn, so when you are adding 4+ units a turn to your stack they might add 1 longbow. It's all a matter of numbers, and with enough Trebs all walls will fall. :p Oh, and you should be attacking your first AI for land much earlier with swords/axes + catapults. This will allow you to slingshot yourself to Eng much faster. If you have Elephants you can usually even take a vassal after you take out 1 AI. A lot of times I will just take all of the strong cities on my borders of the AI, and vassal them. Then give them back all of their less satisfactory cities so they can do something with their bonuses. An early vassal is very strong, and makes your tech rate explode.

    I can't say I didn't know that HA all the things was your advice due to watching your videos since the beginning like 5 years ago or some time to long to remember. But it really is true, if you just want to win on monarch, and bellow all you need is HA. Now if they really wanted to know how to win on Emp+ I might give them some real advice, but they always post about help I can't win on noble what do I do! Thus I give them the short sweet, and simple answer. Kill all the things.
     
  19. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Using swordsmen against an AI without metal is similar to libbing steel how, exactly?
     
  20. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    he's trying to say there's a difference between a strategy that won and an optimal strategy. Search "cherry tapping". For example, on monarch I'm sure TMIT or I could win the game by using only elephants and catapults, never any other unit, even if it got the age of rifles, etc. But just because you could win the game with elephants doesn't make it an optimal strategy
     

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