CBob04: Pregame Discussion and Brainstorming

[CommandoBob]

CBob04: Modern Warfare Deluxe is planned to be a game that focuses on the joys and thrills of fighting with Tanks, Infantry and Battleships, (and possibly nukes, too, ) against the AI.

The big idea is this: we just hang around in the game, trying to stay out of the way, until we get to modern military and then, BAM!, we go on the offensive and kill everybody.

But I don't have everything mapped out in my mind yet and would like some help.

As of now, I see this at Emperor level, standard map size with continents.

These are the issues I see that would need to be decided before the game got started.

Issues

Early Turns and Civ Size
Since the game plan is to focus on Modern Era weaponry, then it follows that the early turns will be sorta dull. What I envision is that we set a max number of cities until we can fight, but this number is fuzzy. I don't want the AIs to have 15 cities and we have 40, nor do I really want us to be the weakest civ. So we need a number of cities to stay at. This could be a fixed number (easiest) or something as complicated as determining the average city size of an average civ (in this game) and having no more than that number.

When to Fight
The game has Cavalry as part of the Industrial Age, but to me it seems to straddle both Industrial and Modern. We need a trigger event (we learn a specific tech or maybe just entering the Modern Age lol) that let's us let loose the dogs of war.

Early Expansion and Warfare
Whatever our max city size will be until we can make Modern War, we will probably have to do some fighting to that size. Or maybe not. I think early warfare would be necessary unless we fiddled with the game setting (large map size but only standard map size opponents). I don't see any early war designed to eliminate an AI; that makes the busting out phase too easy.

Victory Conditions
We would either try for Domination or Conquest; whichever one we didn't aim for would be turned off. I would consider turning off Diplomatic, Cultural and Space, too, but I feel strange about that. It would almost make our effort too easy.

Who are We?
Only four civs have anything like Modern Era UUs: Russia (Cossack), Ottomans (Siphai), Germany (Panzers) and America (F-15). Any one of these is a good match for this game, but which one sorta depends on when we breakout and get nasty; that condition should try to match our UU, if possible.

Game Startup
This game would not start until CBob03: Germans in Tutus is finished.

Disclaimer
I am just trying to get feed back on how to take this idea and make it better. Feel free to post your thoughts; I won't take it as a sign-up.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I could see maybe someone play it solo with those rules and actually start as an SG from the beginning of the Modern era. What level should it be, Emperor? As far as what country to play as, I have been playing all 4 mentioned quite a bit lately. It seems like America has the latest UU, which I would say makes it the frontrunner. Other UU's that come to mind are Man of War (Magnetism) and the Hwatch'a (Metallurgy). Panzers are late Industrial, and all the rest are late Medieval.

 

[CommandoBob]

I could see maybe someone play it solo with those rules and actually start as an SG from the beginning of the Modern era.

I had actually considered doing just that; start the game and get it to a 'Ready to Launch' state and then get the SG going. That would certainly take away the boredom of the early years. On the flip side, I just wasn't sure that anyone would be interested in 'starting' an SG at 1700 AD, with an 'unseen' game. Just imagine the turn log, even an abbreviated one, to get the players up to speed on world events!

I'm willing to get a game ready like that (I do like the idea!); I wasn't sure anyone would want to play with such a different startup.



Regarding the Civs, I have played as Russia and Germany in SGs before, but never the Ottomans or Americans. The American UU is hardly ever used in a game, since fighter warfare tends to be considered mysterious and confusing. Nonetheless, the Yanks are my early favorite, if for no other reason that I'll recognize the city names.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I like the turn-logs i see from some of the players in the XOTM games that sum up a whole game in a single post. Basically, they list advances, eras, eliminated enemies and other basic info about the game without huge amounts of detail.

 

[CommandoBob]

I can do that; just hit these high points:

1. cities built
2. trade made
3. techs learned
4. new civs met
5. wars started and ended
6. Wonders built

No details of city production or other MM stuff.

I've got an HOF attempt (currently stalled) where I have kept that kind of log.

..huge amount of details.

Yeah, I resemble that remark.

 

[gmaharriet]

lurker's comment: Here's a link to gmaharriet1.1 in which scoutsout did the setup and we finished up with a HUGE roster (8 I think). http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166367 The purpose was to give me a chance to learn about playing in a Commie government and do a bit of warmongering. It was further along in the warfare department than you'd want to be, but set up well for revolting. We had a lot of fun with it!

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: An interesting-looking variant, CBob! Naturally, I can't resist a couple of comments.

. . . . So we need a number of cities to stay at. This could be a fixed number (easiest) or something as complicated as determining the average city size of an average civ (in this game) and having no more than that number.

I'd suggest a fixed number of cities. Ease of calculation will speed things along. Having a clear-cut trigger event just makes the game run more smoothly, IMO.

When to Fight
The game has Cavalry as part of the Industrial Age, but to me it seems to straddle both Industrial and Modern. We need a trigger event (we learn a specific tech or maybe just entering the Modern Age lol) that let's us let loose the dogs of war.

Actually, Military Tradition comes in the Middle Ages, but I agree with your assessment that cavalry straddle well into the Industrial and are useful even into the Modern Ages. But remember that Military Tradition comes late in the Middle Ages, and can come even earlier if you beeline it.

On the one hand, using Military Tradition as a trigger event runs the risk (especially if you play the Russians or the Ottomans) that you'll wind up storming across your own continent before really getting into the Modern Age.

On the other hand, setting entering the Modern Age as your trigger would allow a massive cavalry (or cav-replacement) build-up. That could also send you storming across your continent before really getting into the Modern Age.

If you want to use discovery of a tech as the trigger, what about something much closer to the Modern for a trigger? Like Combustion or Replaceable parts? Those two really seem much more like Modern techs, whereas Military Tradition arrives before you've even got railroads.

. . . . I would consider turning off Diplomatic, Cultural and Space, too, but I feel strange about that. It would almost make our effort too easy.

Leave all VCs on. The AI is going to need every opportunity to beat you. Otherwise, I think it'll be too easy for y'all.

Good luck.

 

[CommandoBob]

Oh gosh, what a brain-freeze. I forgot that Military Tradition was in the Middle Ages.

Regarding a trigger, what about after we build the United Nations?

I mean, we prove to the world we are committed to a path of dialogue and understanding by completing such an edifice. Then we pound everyone into the dust.

The twisted logic appeals to me.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

Or, how about if you play it that you can't declare any wars until your UU is built? (Most challenging if you're playing the 'Mericans, don't you think?) Then set the goal as either conquest or domination, but leave the others on for the challenge? This sounds a bit like the Axis of Evil sg from a while back. The Germans were limited to 5CC until 1900 and then all alliances except for Rome and Japan had to be broken, occilating AW commenced, and the fighting wasn't supposed to end until at least one rival civ had been nuked. Too bad we never finished that one.

If I were playing, I wouldn't think that the early game would necessarily be boring, especially if you played it as a 5CC at demi or even deity. It would take a lot of work to stay alive until the dogs were loosed. Actually, doesn't that sound a bit also like the magnificent Koreans game a while back? (I really should look up the names of these sg's.)

Anyway, just my two coppers.

EDIT: The very cool Koreans game was Goz-12. Axis of Evil is archived at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=164036&page=1

 

[TheOverseer714]

I like the UU trigger if it's America. Otherwise, it might be when you advance into the modern era. With scientific, which all our other top candidates are(Germany, Russia, and the Ottomans), that means getting the freebie. The rules for these tribes could be set so that no UU's be made until that trigger occurs. That would be most fair. We could set the number of cities to be say 20, representing an average country. What about Government? Are we going to be a Monarchy, Republic, or the other "forgotten" governments, Communism or Fascism? I have never played as Fascist before.

 

[Elephantium]

This sounds like a really interesting game. If I have time, I'd be glad to join once it starts up.

For the early game, I'd play as a 12CC (or whatever is needed to build the FP on the map you choose). Let the trigger be: Stealth and Robotics are both researched. That will make sure that there's lots of room to play with Stealth Bombers, Modern Armor, and Radar Artillery.

 

[Tad Empire_0_o]

I have a question about this... do you loose the dogs of war when everyone is in the modern age or when you reach the modern age?

 

[CommandoBob]

Good point. At Emperor we might not be the first to reach the Modern Age, so it could be triggered when anyone got to the Modern Age.

My mental picture was when we acheived some milestone we would become brutish and nasty. But we could use an AI trigger also. Perhaps when an AI begins building the United Nations?

 

[Aabraxan]

Perhaps when an AI begins building the United Nations?

Or when anybody completes it? That's a nice, easily-defined trigger. Besides, then you've got to worry about how long you've got until the next election, at least until you burn down the city that has the UN. . . .

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think we might want a wider city spacing than usual, maybe cxxxc so that our few cities aren't overly crowded and are all highly productive. World size I guess could be standard, maybe a Pangaea with 60% water. I vote for Germany so we can play with Panzers. I am fine with a 12 city empire if they are all large and well-developed. How about making the trigger be when anyone discovers Fission, either the human player or any AI?

 

[CommandoBob]

Or when anybody completes it? That's a nice, easily-defined trigger. Besides, then you've got to worry about how long you've got until the next election, at least until you burn down the city that has the UN. . . .

Maybe...we would know who was building the thing, so we could get the armies of liberation into place to mug that city as soon as it was completed.

Which would be a low-down, dirty and mean trick to play on the AI.

Sounds great.

I think we might want a wider city spacing than usual, maybe cxxxc so that our few cities aren't overly crowded and are all highly productive. World size I guess could be standard, maybe a Pangaea with 60% water. I vote for Germany so we can play with Panzers. I am fine with a 12 city empire if they are all large and well-developed. How about making the trigger be when anyone discovers Fission, either the human player or any AI?

World size would be standard. Don't know about Pangea; I was favoring continents in order to have some naval stategy options and also have a chance to use Aircraft Carriers and the other fun naval toys.

We need to build the Forbidden Palace before we start our great expansion. If we can do that with 12 cities then fine. Otherwise we'll need to increase the city count.

I was trying to avoid Germany since it was the civ in CBob03; I didn't want to burn out on Germany. But since we won't be naming our cities after German composers (Richard Wagner, JS Bach, Micheal von Biel, etc) or naming our armies after musical instruments (Army of Flutes, Army of Oboes, etc), I think we'll be able to seperate the two games. Plus, with Panzers as the UU, we'll kick off our Golden Age when we launch our first war, so we will get faster replacemnts.

I can live with Germany. But the civ is still open for discussion.

 

[TheOverseer714]

True, continents usually bring about a certain amount of naval strategy, and theres airlifting, amphibious warfare, and bombing from carriers if it's modern era. I agree that we have played Germany awhile in C-Bob03 and America is the only country with a true modern-era UU. I have no trouble coming up with new city names when playing America. We may also want to try to avoid a GA until the Modern Age. I think we may want to start forming up a lineup and all the parameters, because getting the pre-SG game will take careful play and will take considerable time. We may need to get that rolling.

 

[Aabraxan]

You could also go with a restriction like "We may not declare war until we finish building our first [Insert UU name here]," then go AW from then on. It'd certainly be a challege at Emperor.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: What the heck, why not continents on a huge map? That should make for some lively warmongering, eh? This sounds like it's going to be a fun game!

 

[sercer88]

lurker's comment: here's my 3 :

Don't declare war (or provoke an attack) until the tech tree is completed. Of course, that would mean: prevent the AI from winning as long as you can: I can't see how you would be able to win THAT one! But, if it does last that long...

That's the builder in me

(yes...I meant to put "3" instead of "2" because I view the info as VERY important )