Cedric's MGE Patch

[CivPartisan]

Hey fellow civers!

It has been brought to my attention that Cedric's patch is not a kosher patch. Some say that it could be considered software piracy.

For those of you who are not familar with Cedric Greene's patch, it is a patch that allows Civ II players to upgrade their Civ II version to MGE. It also allows Test of Time players to 'downgrade' their version to MGE.

Here are a few points to consider:

1) Players must own a copy of Civ II in order to use this patch.

2) This patch cannot be played without Civ II.

3) This patch is a third party contribution, and it is not maintained by Microprose. (Microprose no longer provides upgrades or support for Civ II products).

Some of things you might consider on the other side is this:

1) It allows players to change versions of the game without buying the version.

2) It allows multiplayer capabilities of MGE not present in earlier releases.

3) It downgrades Test of Time to a slightly different game engine.
not available with other ToT patches.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, there you have it...let the frolics begin...

 

[kobayashi]

I don't know about the above but I bought my FW and I bought a version of MGE as well. That was a long time ago and Civ II as you mentioned is probably not relevant to Micropose (or whatever incarnation it is in now) at this stage - that doesn't make it kosher but they probably don't care, especially with Civ III out.

 

[anarchywrksbest]

If its legal or not, it doesn't matter to me as I downloaded the patch and the bloody thing didn't work!

Oh well, I'll just have to find it to buy in a bargain bin.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Cedrics patch has been invaluable to me. Without I would still be stuck with my classic version of civ2, with no chances to run all those great scenarios available. I'm definitely in favor of keeping the patch on this site, simply to keep the civ2 community alive and in good spirits, which basically IS the scenario creating and -playing part of the civ community. So whatever the principles and definitions, this patch helps this community in a way that is priceless, and I say, keep it!

I think that, whatever the ups and downs of ToT, Cedrics patch has helped make MGE a standard format for scenarios, which has (despite its possible shortcomings) much better scenario tools than those of classic civ2, which one would otherwise have to do with, to reach the widest group of players.

 

[CivPartisan]

Hey Guys,

Koby has a good point, but also another thing came to mind...these are ALL Civ II files. It would probably be a different completely thing if these were files from different games such as the Original Civ I or the new Civ III. But these files are all Civ II. Speaking of versions the files themselves are updates. I bought the following versions:

Civ II: v1.07 regular
Civ II: v2.42 regular
Civ II: v2.62 Conflicts in Civilization
Civ II: v2.78 Fantastic Worlds
Civ II: v5.25f Multiplayer Gold

Morten, what you're saying makes a lot of sense for the civ community. We have to be able to cater to the needs of the community as well...

There are a lot of ideas out there and I think it is good to discuss them...Also, I encourage everyone to visit Cedric's Civilization II Page:

http://hometown.aol.com/cedricgreene/

and see what his view is...

John

 

[Mercator]

crap... I accidentally hit "Submit Reply".

The real reply is coming...

 

[Mercator]

(a reply to John, in the thread that started this discussion)

Originally posted by JValdezToo
"Microprose designed their game so that people could make scenarios." Microprose did not design Civ II to have the following files tampered with:

Graphics:

city.gif
civ2art.dll
cv.dll
intro.dll
mk.dll
pv.dll
ss.dll
tiles.dll

These files are not part of the Fantastic Worlds scenario editor.
Tampering with these files constitutes changes that can be looked at as an upgrade (hopefully if it is good enough ). A lot of people have changed these files for their scenarios and modpacks (yes, I am among those derelect pioneers )

Nope, that is not an upgrade. They're just changed graphics. This is, however, a rather more complicated issue than the "regular" files. I guess changing these would constitute "reverse engineering" or something of that sort, which is illegal. Here's a bit from the license in the FW manual:

YOU MAY NOT USE, COPY, MODIFY, TRANSFER, SUBLICENSE, RENT, LEASE, CONVEY, TRANSLATE, CONVERT TO ANY PROGRAMING LANGUAGE OR FORMAT OR DECOMPILE OR DISASSEMBLE THE SOFTWARE OR ANY COPY, MODIFICATION OR MERGED PORTION, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED FOR IN THIS LICENSE.

So, in principle, changing these DLL's would be illegal, and distributing even more so (still, you must have Civ2 already, and the DLL's differ between Civ2 versions as well, so personally I don't consider this as problematic)... If you would only distribute the replacement graphics with replacing instructions you can leave the decision up to the others themselves, whether they want to use them or not (you could argue the same would go for including the entire DLL's as well).

These files are not read in the scenario directory as changes when the scenario is selected. That is because these files have to be in the MAIN Civ2 directory-- just like a patch.

Whether or not it needs to be in the main Civ2 directory is irrelevant. After all the 2.42 patch was installed in the main directory, but since it was a freely released patch by Microprose there's nothing wrong with it... In contrast, CiC, FW and MGE are all separate products, all of them need be bought in stores as separate upgrades to Civ2. On all of them, programmers have done their best to make improvements to the game engine, and found them profound enough to ask money for it.
Even more, while CiC and FW (and the non-MGE Multiplayer update) were upgrades which required the standard Civ2, MGE was an entirely different game, which didn't require the original Civ2, but was a stand-alone product.

Does it make it piracy if everyone owns the game already?
Is a downgrade piracy? Doesn't it also standardize the 'Civ community' so everyone has the same version? I thought it promoted the purchase of Civ II when MGE is not available in a player's geographic area? As I understand it, this patch cannot be used without Civ II or ToT. We need to know the answers to these questions first...

MGE was a product different from Civ2, whether you think that is basically a rip-off, because you already got an earlier version, because the newer versions are difficult to find (if at all) is irrelevant.
The fact is, these versions were sold separately, so if you get them without paying for them, you're doing something illegal. Otherwise, Microproe/Hasbro/whoever would have released patches themselves.

Sorry Jorrit, and please take no offense, but this is the only part I disagree with. I do not agree with software piracy ever (getting a commercial program for free without paying for it impacts the jobs of people).

In principle, I fully agree with you. I don't copy music or download MP3's either... But a lot of the applications are just far above my, poor student, budget. I know that's just a cheap excuse.
I'll buy them once I get a steady income, honest.

Maybe I'm just being a little hypocrite, and not in the position to argue about this... I think, regardless of any laws, it all mostly comes down to everyone's own ideas about "illegal".
Say, technically, I guess the no-limits patches would also be illegal. But I don't consider that a problem, since you really do need to have the correct version of Civ2 fully installed before that patch can be installed.

 

[The Art of War]

Do I need to download all of those files to have complete MGE capabilities?

 

[CivPartisan]

Hey Mercator,

I wanted to thank you and applaud your argument regarding the legalities of Cedric's patch. The attention that is brought about enhances the reverence for copyright and other rights held by programmers of games. At the same time, I think your analysis has merit and rings true for many points; the years to come when Civ products draw closer to abandonware will make this a moot point not just for us but other mod writers as well. Until that time, I suppose that our interest in this is because we both adore Civ and want to keep it safe and protected.

I encourage this kind of debate because it keeps mod writers acutely aware of the danger of new ideas and their patch releases regarding other people's programming work. Maybe they will question more whether or not they are crossing the line.

It's a gray area, in some cases--I know, but I also think that programmers once went to college too, Jorrit-- they understand the poor student issue (I know I do)-- so as long nobody is selling their work or taking credit where it isn't due-- we should remember to step lightly and respectfully around the issue of software needs, including upgrades.

On another note, Battle.net is suing an open-source website sponsored by Gateway for not checking that players are using pirated game software. It's the kind of thing that makes you think.

John

 

[Thunderfall]

Why did you bring it up, John? It was released so long ago. Technically that patch is not legal, and I only put it on the site because Civ2 Gold is nowhere to be found in stores. I even emailed Infogrames once to tell them to publish more copies of Civ2 Gold. I definitely would not have put that patch on the site if Civ2 Gold is still available -- I could earn commisions by linking to that game (at Amazon, for example)!

 

[Case]

It seems that Microprose really screwed up the distribution of MGE...

 

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Thunderfall
Why did you bring it up, John?

I did...

Technically that patch is not legal, and I only put it on the site because Civ2 Gold is nowhere to be found in stores.

Hmmm, yes... That's definitely true. I wonder why Civ2 seems to have been re-released, and not Civ2MGE... They must've been afraid all Civ3 fans would defect to Civ2 so they could then multiplay.

Civ2MGE for the Mac is still widely available, though, or at least the last time I "checked".


But then... Why does everybody want MGE when ToT is so much better, and ToT IS still available and for rather cheap too?
And don't tell me that's because MGE is more widely used, since that point would be moot if everyone bought ToT in stead of downloading MGE.

 

[CivPartisan]

Mercator,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But then... Why does everybody want MGE when ToT is so much better, and ToT IS still available and for rather cheap too?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ToT is a good point...I think it is a better than MGE in many ways. But some players haven't liked ToT from the beginning because:

a) it is not compatible with scenarios from other civ versions or the maps (although there is a converter, it's a bit cumbersome)

b) it is harder to build scenarios for ToT due to lack of a proper editor within the game. I wanted to mention I think I saw a website that listed someone trying to write an editor...was it sourceforge.com?

c) there has been considerable dispute over the darkness/contrast of the graphics and the conflicts with units and animations.

It may also be something as simple as the name "Sid Meier" is missing from the box title...I noticed that it receives wide acclaim in forums as "not really being Civilization".

But Apolyton has a relatively large following of ToT'ers who seem to be quite knowledgable about building ToT scenarios.

We need someone to buildup the ToT portion of the site here at Civfantatics...any takers?

My son loves to try to play ToT with me because the units move by themselves (he's only 6)...but he likes Age of Empires better

John

 

[Mercator]

Originally posted by JValdezToo
a) it is not compatible with scenarios from other civ versions or the maps (although there is a converter, it's a bit cumbersome)

OK, yes, the scenarios may have a problem... I haven't tried out CivConverter, so I'm not sure how good that is... But the maps? There's nothing different with the maps.

b) it is harder to build scenarios for ToT due to lack of a proper editor within the game. I wanted to mention I think I saw a website that listed someone trying to write an editor...was it sourceforge.com?

Ah yes... There is/was such a project, I was even involved in it (for a very limited period), it's called CivCAD and was initiated by the same guy that brought us CSPL and MGE/CivConverter: Angelo Scotto. I don't really see that getting anywhere anytime soon though. He must either be working on it himself in secret, or he has abandoned the idea.
But beyond that, most scenario creators don't use those sloppy FW editors anyway. And I don't see how creating ToT scenarios is harder. You can choose whether you want to make it harder on yourself or not. Just ignore all the extras, and creating ToT scenarios is just as easy/hard as for any other version.
Only when you want to use the advantages of ToT will you need to worry about the extra difficulty, but then again, you'll get a lot back from it too, exactly because of these extra options.

c) there has been considerable dispute over the darkness/contrast of the graphics and the conflicts with units and animations.

Graphics can be changed, there are several modpacks out there already that do that, and the animations can be deleted if they're problematic.

In other words, most of these so called problems aren't problems at all. They're probably just impulsive reactions of those same people who say they wouldn't mind Civ3 with Civ1 graphics, but start whining about the ToT graphics. Or people who just don't want to buy it, for whatever reason, and don't want to fall behind.

It may also be something as simple as the name "Sid Meier" is missing from the box title...I noticed that it receives wide acclaim in forums as "not really being Civilization".

AFAIK, Sid Meier worked as much on ToT as on any other Civ2 version (i.e. he didn't do anything).

But Apolyton has a relatively large following of ToT'ers who seem to be quite knowledgable about building ToT scenarios.

There are some...

We need someone to buildup the ToT portion of the site here at Civfantatics...any takers?

Good idea! CFC should start a large ToT promotion campaign.

My son loves to try to play ToT with me because the units move by themselves (he's only 6)...but he likes Age of Empires better

Yes, Civ2 is quite an odd game. For people not familiar with it, it seems enormously boring.
When we got a new kitchen installed, the "kitchen-guy" brought along a young nephew (?) or so with him one day... I got him hooked on my computer, showed him a few games I had... He ddn't like Civ2 too wel (another conversion failed ). He loved to drive around the cars/tanks in Commandos, though.