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CEG Religion

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Kivin, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    It depends a lot on the AI as to what they do with their Holy City.

    In numerous games I have sent Great Prophets to the opponents Holy cities and converted them, at the same time converting all the surrounding cities with a mass of missionaries.
    Often this results in me being the only civ with an active religion. Even after dozens of turns, and the pressure in the other Holy cities becoming enough to make missionaries of their own, they don't. The Holy city just needs another 'beat-down' from my GP and everything is under my control again.

    On the other hand, I have done the same, in other games, to the Holy cities only to see miraculously 2 or 3 Great Prophets appear from supposedly inactive cities (religiously speaking) and start to take back their former cities. It is like it doesn't matter what is the dominant religion in the AI cities, whichever religion that AI started, is the religion of their GPs, regardless of whether there is an active city.

    So, I can't see a missionary, enhanced or not, making too much difference to the spread of opposition religions.
     
  2. Kivin

    Kivin Chieftain

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    Since I'm not really getting any traction, can I at least petition to have the beliefs restored to their original BNW pools? I think BNW has much better choices for religions than CEG in its current state and would rather play that way.

    At that point we can evaluate which beliefs are too weak and tune them better.
     
  3. jwerano

    jwerano Wonderstacker

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    I strongly feel that CEP's current religious beliefs are way better than the beliefs in the base game. The changes thal made created new strategic options that hardly existed in the base game. We should move forward and improve the groundwork not move back. With the current beliefs you can maximize happiness, or culture, or faith, in a way that was formerly unavailable to you. People bemoan how you cant purchase pagodas with faith without a reformation belief. But there is a comparable belief that gives +2 happiness on temples and +1 happiness on shrines, or +2 happiness added to gardens without needing to spend faith. I find that to be preferable. Furthermore if you acquire a reformation belief you can still get pagodas and get +5-6 happiness per city if you so choose from the beliefs combined. Your faith can accumulate to purchase great people while you still get the happiness you value or you can combine beliefs in other powerful ways that were not possible in BNW's base religion.

    I'd like to see some beliefs improved, more meaningful choices provided, and also seeing mixed benefits for spreading beliefs to your own cities vs to foreign cities, such as changing the belief that gives +5 culture when spread to a foreign city and making an additional +1 or +2 in your own cities or +4 in enemy cities and +1 in your own city. But I feel CEPs new beliefs already give more meaningful options than BNW's base beliefs so we should not go back.
     
  4. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Many of them are better than vanilla, though a few are worse (like ceremonial burial). The pantheon beliefs are much better, to the extent that some may be too strong (eg there are beliefs that just affect a couple of particular luxuries which are probably fine - but then there is a another belief that affects all plantations, which covers many luxuries and bananas).

    But I think they are worse than they were before the last set of revisions, which pushed so many beliefs into requiring the entire Piety tree.

    So I don't want to revert to vanilla, but I don't want to leave things how they are either. I'd like to do another balance pass, focusing in particular on founder beliefs and making sure that founder beliefs all benefit you from spreading either to lots of cities or to lots of believers within cities (and so can favor wide or tall religion strategies). I like the idea of the spread-boosting beliefs all being enhancer or reformation. And I'd like to bring many of the beliefs that allow faith consuming before the industrial era back into the follower belief pool.

    People's complaint is not that you can't get enough happiness, it is that there is not enough to spend faith on.

    Before the industrial era, you can't. You can't buy great people before then, and you can't safe faith up effectively as it will just turn into great prophets, which won't really help you.
    Also, the nearly all the policy trees now all have dud policies which make completing trees undesirable, so great person purchases won't necessarily be unlocked.
     
  5. Kivin

    Kivin Chieftain

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    I think this conversation is - and has been - confused between two goals: tuning the beliefs to be balanced, and reorganizing them between the selection pools to give sufficient choices for each win condition. Tuning is always a concern, but my main issue is that some of the belief pools don't feel like they have good choices in them. When I asked to go to Vanilla, I was referring to the placement of the beliefs, not their yields. Just wanted to clear that up.

    When I started this thread, I didn't really know what I thought was wrong about religion, but I've had time to reflect on it since then. Here's a few short points that I think need improvement:

    Some of the Pantheons / Beliefs may feel weak compared to other Beliefs within their own Pool.

    I suppose I need to make a table of the beliefs, sorted by pool, in order to better facilitate discussion on this one.

    Some Belief Pools appear to lack good choices, irrespective of balance, or certain win conditions. Or else they simply lack general enough Beliefs to feel good about picking for all Civs (i.e. Wide/Tall, etc.)

    Several of the Piety beliefs could use some work. I like the reduced Faith costs. I like the free Great Prophet. One helps me be competitive versus other religions, and the other guarantees me a founding religion. I don't like the Golden Age one; the tooltip wording is weird and I'm not sure what it does, or if it even works, and I'm not interested in receiving Golden Age bonuses in Piety.

    The plus happy in the opener is peculiar. Though I'm thankful for it sometimes, I think I'd rather not have it and have it be something more relevant to religion. Maybe even "you instantly gain X Faith" where X is the amount til the next Pantheon. I can't see this being unbalanced, and it'd make difficult to reach religions far easier on the upper difficulties.

    Investing 5 in to Piety feels unrewarding. As I've said before, the Reformation Belief appears to be too weak when the difficulty of spreading religion is to be accounted for.

    I think what I want to see is have all Beliefs which boost Missionaries, Inquisitors, Great Prophets, or Religious Pressure moved to the Reformation Pool exclusively, so that less committed religions will have greater difficulty dealing with spread.
     
  6. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I agree with this in general, except that I think that the vanilla selection pools had some expansion beliefs in the founder pool, and I think there is a good argument to keep the expansion beliefs in the enhancement and reformation pools.

    [Clarifiying nitpick: I think you mean "several of the Piety policies could use some work". The golden age, theocracy, and opener beliefs I think need changes. But I think there are dud policies in nearly every policy tree.]
     
  7. Lissindiel

    Lissindiel Chieftain

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    Finished Egypt game today, got cultural victory at ~1850 AD. Was just building wonders, spreading religion and being friendly to everybody. Divine inspiration feels completly overpowered, it gives tons of tourism if you manage to build >5 wonders. If you playing as Egypt and have much more than 5 wonders... well I've already told about that. It shouldn't yield tourism at all, or yield it starting industrial era.
     
  8. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    I agree. At least two or three faith-exclusive buildings should be available without choosing Piety.
     
  9. TeriXeri

    TeriXeri Chieftain

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    My biggest issue with the reformation/Piety belief "Heathen Conversion" is that the converted barbarians cannot embark unless you move them into your lands, so on an island map it becomes useless if there's no city nearby.

    Even on normal maps barbs tend to stay in arctic/tundra areas for the longest, often on remote islands as well, with no intentions for players to settle unless they are dying for the oil or uranium.
     

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