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Celts

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Doctor Doom, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Doctor Doom

    Doctor Doom Warlord

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    What do you guy's think out the Celts? good? bad? I tried them out the other day and I decided to give them a shot

    liberty to collective rule, then full piety. I normally would have gone sacred sites but I was planning on warmongering a tad with those pictish warriors, so I picked Jesuit Education. From there I kind of just kept expanding into the forest trying to grab and luxury's I could find. I managed to get my faith up to about 120 fpt so every city I founded would have a university/public school/research lab. I found with Jesuit Education I didn't really feel the science penalty for wide empire's since. The Celt's UB really helped me a lot since I was expanding so much I could counteract the happiness problems a little bit better. I ended up winning a turn 330 domination game on standard speed.

    The only thing I would change about the Celts is maybe all units get faith on kill and change the pictish warrior to a swordsman replacement. I like the Celts but I feel I could have done a lot better as the Maya or Songhai. :undecide:
     
  2. Resident Mario

    Resident Mario Warlord

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    Reasons to play as Celts:
    • Guaranteed starter religion.

    ...that's about it really imho. Pictish Warriors are cute but ancient era warfare is somewhere between impractical and impossible; better to concentrate on that :c5faith: and bulk up for later conquests. The spear upgrade line is super-meh anyway, more a novelty than effective.

    Ceilidh Hall is a pretty good UB but seeing as how you're probably picking up at least one faith building anyway you don't really need that :c5happy:.
     
  3. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    Better on longer game speeds: you get more time to decide on your pantheon. I find the turn five pantheon is sometimes too fast on Standard; hard to see all your resources for an informed decision.

    Pictish Warrior would be nicer on the Sword line bit I can make do as spears. An upgrade ruin and some barb-killing can be what you need to grab a religion above and beyond the base fpt from forests.

    Ceilidh hall is nice, beats buying Zoos and you can get your Hermitage from them.

    Overall I like the Celts and find they're a bit underrated. That ultrafast Pantheon takes some getting used to; sometimes I'll deliberately go down to just +1 FPT on my first city just to make the best Pantheon decision. Barring lucky faith city states nobody is beating you to a pantheon even on +1.
     
  4. brasswire

    brasswire Chieftain

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    I'm a fan of the Celts. They're advantages are not as strong as some civs, but they're nice. If I want to play a somewhat "vanilla" civ that can get a quick religion going, then the Celts are right up there.

    - Ceilidh Hall is useful.
    - Guaranteed to get your choice of pantheon.
    - Probably get one of the first two or three religions.

    Not really a fan of the Pictish warrior, but it's ok. Not a big fan of the Forest start either, but I still prefer it to Tundra, Jungle, or Plains.

    Also not really of strategic importance but it matters to me: Their colors and music are both among the tops in the game IMHO. Neither ugly nor distracting (I can't really play Siam for instance because the red/yellow combination just makes me want to vomit).
     
  5. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    I don't mind Pictish being spears - fast pillage on lancer is always nice. faith per kills is a pretty trivial bonus even if it was on the melee line.

    But yeah, same as above, my preferred approach with the celts is exploiting the happiness bonuses for lots of mid-game conquering
     
  6. FinsT

    FinsT Chieftain

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    I'd argue quite much against this; perhaps, it's incorrect.

    There are two possible early cases: either 1st city found near forests, or without any forests close to the city. Let's see what happens in both cases.

    1. There is at least 1 forest tile udjacent to the city. This means that player most likely starts in an area with many forest tiles nearby (in 10-tiles radius), since forests tend to populate these "temperate belts" as a large mass of forested tiles. This means, 2nd and quite likely 3rd cities will be found near forest tile (or even 3), as well. Which means, player does not really need any +faith pantheon (would be an overkill, you know), since there is already lots of faith outta celts' UA. Which means, there is no need to delay pantheon - better to take non-faith-generating one, most if not all of which are not resource-related iirc. Ergo, in this case, your point is much disputable.

    2. There are no forest tiles next to the 1st city. This case is simple: no forests = no fast pantheon. Lots of time to find out what resources you got around. Ergo, in this case, your point is meaningless.

    Summing up the above: i don't think it's better on longer game speeds; i think there is no substantial difference between game speeds in this case.

    Sorry. :crazyeye:
     
  7. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    I used to play as the Celts(before BNW) and it's possible not found a religion as you may not get a forest start. Not failing that you should be the first to found and enhance your religion(using your Pictish Warriors to kill barbs). With BNW you prolly want to beeline your reformation belief to get the Jesuit Education, which will put you behind early-mid game. That is until you research Education and Scientific Theory.....
     
  8. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    Your argument is based on the idea that you don't need a faith generating pantheon. I disagree. There is always value on getting your religion founded quicker, and value in managing to get your enhancing prophet out before other people found.

    If you pick any faith purchased buildings, buying them faster is better. Later in the game, buying lots of Great People is worth something. So many Founder bonuses depend on how many people you have following your religion: more Faith for Missionaries will letypu make the most out of things like Tithe, World Church, Papal Primacy, Pilgrimage, or Interfaith Dialogue. Converting other empires nets a healthy shared religion bonus to diplomacy, or even if they found their own later they'll never really overcome the inertia of yours.

    I don't know what other pantheon you're thinking of, but i will always weigh the above over a potential bonus like +1 food from camps or +1 production from work boats. Those are bonuses i take for the early game if i have to accept i will not be a major religious empire in the game i am playing.
     
  9. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    Liberty, 3 city, pict+comp bow rush kills alot of people, generally netting you an extra capitol. I'd say 10-12 units of equal proportion will trash a mp opponent or quickly seize an AI. You can generally get away with this diplomatically if you 2 are isolated, and if there are 10 or more total opponents. (Because with 8 total, you own 2 capitols which is 25% and that magic figure makes it very difficult to recover diplomatically)
     
  10. MisterBoomBoom

    MisterBoomBoom King

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    The unimproved forest requirement is quite annoying. As is the juggling of city placements due to this rule. I generally hate civs with early unique units as well. *poof* they are obsolete. Not one of my favorites civs (possibly my least favorite Civ in fact) but is not a for a lack of trying it ...repeatedly.
     
  11. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    I would make the pictish warrior faith generation a promotion to be kept all game long...at least it might help get great ppl later on.
     
  12. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    They used to be a prime ICS candidate with their UB, but the new science per city nerf has hit them very hard. Still a fun civ though. That said, you should still be doing liberty and wide with lots of faith and lots of war.
    The UU has quite a lot of synergy, as the early faith furthers your ability to get your religion up and running quick, and then as pikes (don't forget these and spears are strong units, it's only after that when they suffer) you get free pillaging, meaning you can be much more aggressive in unit placing when in battle and when sieging cities. This works particularly well with the liberty+pyramids pillage-repair-pillage trick, and the Celts naturally go liberty, so happy days, that'll put all your war-gotten workers to use. You also get a crap load of pillaging with them as lancers. For this reason I sometimes go commerce + big ben with them. Lastly the combat bonus outside of friendly territory is always useful and goes well with the aggressive wide strategy. All in all they're very worth building, and are also very fun units, very underrated imo (remember that they keep everything on upgrade except the faith bonus, which is most important early anyway, and they also gain the bonus versus mounted on upgrade).
    The UA I also think is underrated, as faith is most important early, and you can really carve out a dominant religion when going wide (The 'lots of low pop cities' is also perfect for natural religious spread). The important point to remember is that once your religion is established, there's no reason to keep 3 forests uncut just for the extra 1 faith, you can chop it when the land becomes productive.
    The UB got hit by the lack of ICS viability due to science, but is still pretty strong, and other civs which war a lot would kill for that amount of extra happiness.

    For a religion, there are loads of options, but holy warriors seems pretty natural (to me anyway, which is fun cos I rarely take it, and relish being the celts, Songhai, Indonesia etc.). You can also consider going reformation for Jesuit Education, and double faith buildings as options. You also have the option of hitting missionaries hard with GMoD and the various enhancer and reformation beliefs, or just working the natural spread enhancers.

    All in all, I don't think they're a complete powerhouse, but are stronger than many give them credit for, and they're also one of the most fun civs to play for the first half of the game.

    P.S I should note that I'm generally biased towards the spear UUs. Immortals are epic as spears or pikes when you promote them right, and both immortals and hoplites have some of the best aesthetics in the game imo. Would like to see the hoplite with +2 CS which is kept on upgrade though.
     
  13. FinsT

    FinsT Chieftain

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    Depending on circumstances,
    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BELIEF_GOD_CRAFTSMEN.aspx (early city production +10%...20% or so, despite being only +1 per city; guaranteed to remain useful, if increasingly insignificant, bonus for 100% of the game - but main point is faster development very early, which boosts everything happening after it, obviously)
    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BELIEF_OPEN_SKY.aspx (can be very massive boost to policies and territory this early, if multiple pastures are possible)
    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BELIEF_GODDESS_HUNT.aspx
    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BELIEF_ORAL_TRADITION.aspx
    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BELIEF_RELIGIOUS_SETTLEMENTS.aspx
    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BELIEF_SUN_GOD.aspx

    I still am convinced Celts are usually better going with non-faith pantheon. Let's say they get +4 fpt from UA relatively early with a 2nd city. Then let's say player kills something with a pictish warrior every 5th turn (barbarians are obvious targets this early), having a few pictish warriors rolling around for this purpose. That's ~1fpt more. Then let's say player finds two +faith ruins after finding a pantheon (which is also quite humble, assuming proper scouting is done). I usually play epic speed, numbers there are 80 faith per ruin and 300 faith needed to find a religion. So, 140 faith needed. With at least 5 fpt (from the above), that's 28 turns.

    What you would shave from 28 turns to find a religion by a +faith pantheon? 5 turns? 10? Is it any big deal? To me, definitely not. And after building 3rd and possibly 4th cities, enhancing will happen in a blink of an eye (if not yet), assuming player still tries to utilize Celts' UA to the fullest (which one should; freebies, after all). Having a pantheon doing +1 food from every deer, fur, trufle and ivory for the rest of the game - for a forest nation, which is likely to have lots of these resources around, - sounds like one of very attractive options to me. It may worth as much as a few equivalents of Hanging Gardens added together, you know? With this, you'll grow faster (assuming rational and efficient happiness management and not over-settling), means you'll get - among many other things, - religious buildings faster, and possibly extra +faith wonder or few, if so desired. Which is more total faith per game. I don't think we can properly (precisely) quantify what would be the max gain of faith for your way - and for this here extra faith "method". But i think all the other bonuses resulting from non-faith pantheon (best one in one's circumstances) - usually worth, together in total, more than a faith-generating pantheon. Exceptions always exist, of course, - if somehow you are playing in tundra massively from the start, for example. If pantheon can generate many dozens faith per turn - then yeah, sure, can be a better choice. But again, i think it's kind of exceptional cases; it has to do with both low efficiency and also diminishing returns of faith (as a form of "currency") in terms of conversion of it into actually useful things (gold, production, science, units).
     
  14. FinsT

    FinsT Chieftain

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    Your whole post is very excellent, Crafty. This bit in the quote is also true, but i'd like to append: there is a small reason not to cut those for a long time in a city (cities?) which are expected to produce another settler (or few) in some future, because
    1) usually it is no problem to just not work those unimproved forest tiles during growth times until quite late in the game (when there are no same-or-better-when-cut-and-improved tiles left for a city to work), and
    2) when building a settler, even negative city's food output is set to zero - that's when some forest tiles can actually be beneficial to work (for max possible shields per turn).

    Again, very informative post overall, and was a pleasure to read, too. :goodjob:
     
  15. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    I will agree that you can get good mileage out of a non faith generating pantheon and do all right with the Celts. Your point about the merits of Sun God, Goddess of the Hunt, Oral Tradition, and so on is a good one. I've used those pantheons to good effect on a few occasions. Whether you prefer that to a faith generating pantheon is a stylistic choice, and I can't fault someone going either way on it.

    I will stick to my point that the UA is better on slower game speeds though. When choosing between almost any of the above, the important piece of information you need is what resources are in the area and how much of each you have. On Standard speed, you get a pantheon on turn 5 if you use the UA to its fullest. I find that often leaves me making a wild guess as to what resources I've got in the area. In a forest-heavy start with some hills you may be making the decision essentially blind. On Epic (my preferred speed) the pantheon is on turn 8, which is at least a few extra turns of info.

    The couple pantheons you mentioned which are totally independent of terrain are ones I feel are notably weaker than anything enhancing terrain. God of Craftsmen is okay, but really only kicks in around population 4 or 5 so you can have 3 believers. The rest, like faster border growth or quick healing by cities, are of very marginal use to me and I would never pick them over something else.
     
  16. Sid Simelia

    Sid Simelia Warlord

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    Yeah, if you can get the faith to snowball in the early eras the UA can turn out to be really useful to get you going.
    In my next game with them I wanted to grab Holy Warriors and just mass produce Pictish Warriors and see how fast I can conquer my continent. If I can use Celidh Halls and Pagodas to good effect before industrial, I can keep my happiness in check. The idea being the PWs will pay for themselves by amassing faith from battles. That's extra gold and production to spend on other things.
    I've never had a good dominant victory with the Celts, so I want to go to the next continent with lancers and artillery and just start taking everything. I am sure this is a good warmonger Civ under the right circumstances, but thus far I've played peacefully with them and it feels like something is a little off.
     
  17. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

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    Yeah, but with some luck, you can pull up ruin with warrior that upgrades it into Pictish warrior. Make an archer and start chasing barb camps and you'll have first religion 100%. :D You don't need to clear up that barb camp, you can just let it spam barbs until you get religion, then just finish it off. :D

    and overall Celts. I think they are fun to play. They have forest bias - use it to get pantheon at turn 3-4, use Pictish Warriors to chase down barbs and get religion, then either chop down forest for Wonders\Buildings or turn them into lumbermills. Remember, you only need forest that is right next to your city, other's don't matter. So, free chopping! :lol:

    thier UB isn't terrible either. It gives free Happpiness because Celts like to get drunk. :lol:
     
  18. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    Celts ? Awful on Archipelago maps.
    Otherwise, I tried Collective rule and Piety, but I never got Sacred Rites and maybe 1 for 2 games Jesuit Education. After that, buy GP with faith when I reach Industrial Era is fun, but I'm late in Science, so late in all.
    Never tried Pictish + CoB rush, seems good on paper.
     
  19. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    I just had an awesome game with the Celts on an immortal huge map. On huge maps the science penalty is only 2% so I went Liberty-Commerce-a few rationalism-Order and hyper expanded. Big Ben, Mercantilism and Skyscrapers was a pretty sweet combination for some post industrial expansion.

    I took goddess of the hunt, liturgical drama (I figured I'd have amphitheaters in every city anyway) Pagodas, tithe and itinerant preachers. I never built a shrine and I don't feel like I went out of my way to use the UA but I did save at least one plot in the cities that had one adjacent forest. I improved 2/3 plots at the cities that had the 3 plots after I founded. It worked pretty well for decent faith generation without shrines or temples, I did get Uluru and that helped a lot too. Itinerant preachers plus city spam meant I never had to buy missionaries or inquisitors (I did DoW Austria to get her to stop converting my cities, Vienna was a nice addition to my empire). The UA was great because it allowed me to avoid wasting resources on religious buildings while still having a strong empire. Even better the food pantheon let me grow my cities pretty fast and Edinburgh stayed neck and neck populationwise with Thebes (the city where HG was built). I think the UA gives you more freedom to choose a food or production pantheon since you don't need as much help founding.

    The Celidh Hall turned out to be awesome combined with pagodas. My cities were happiness neutral really fast even before I opened my Ideology. It led to a lot of golden ages for a wide empire.

    The Picts weren't all that special though. I did take the honor opener to hunt barbs with them but the immortal AI are pretty good at clearing out barb camps since the patch so I got beat to camps a lot. I did use them a little liberating some Dutch cities from Assyria but it was time to upgrade them pretty quick and I never felt like I got much faith from them. Maybe 50-60 points at most, not enough to buy anything. I'm on board with other people and wish they were swordsmen except the FFK ability would come pretty late with ironworking. I think that might be why they replace spears instead. More than anything I just don't like the lancer upgrade path, the couple I did hang on to turned into pretty badass helicopters though. I actually used them against both Germany and China who both had a chance to win an SV before me.

    I wound up winning an SV but I could have won anyway I wanted. I was 6 turns from a diplo vic and 14 turns from a CV.
     

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