1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Central Asian civilization

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Faraway
    No Turkic state really had anything to do with spreading Islam in significant numbers. The Middle East was already solidly Muslim when they arrived there.
     
  2. srpt

    srpt Deist

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,038
    Location:
    Toronto
    Islam did spread to China through them though didn't it?

    I think they should spawn in the Lake Balkhash area at the start of the Gokturk Qaganate (575ADish).

    UHVs:

    control the silk route ie ensure that China and the Middle East are connected overland.

    control Central Asia, NW India and the Middle East in 1200AD (representing combined conquests of the Ghaznavids and Seljuks)

    make Samarqand the richest and most cultural city in the world

    you could steal the Khazar UP from RFCCW: defeated steppe barbarian units join your civ

    the Timurid UP from SoI is also really cool: culture in your capital from capturing cities (in SoI its razing and massacres but it could be just capturing)
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Faraway
    Sure, but that's not really equivalent to the scope of what such a goal would imply.

    That sounds good, and encompasses all major eras.

    Yeah, my question about the Timurids was especially because I wanted to use the SoI UP. The Timurids have the most interesting game in SoI in my opinion.
     
  4. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,735
    Play a game of SoI and pick your poison?
     
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Faraway
    :confused:
     
  6. billyleeback16

    billyleeback16 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    75
    When you posted this I immediately thought of the Huns but on second thought they're better represented by barbarians or a Seljuk-like minor civ to make things harder for the Romans/Byzantines. They came from around the Caspian Sea and Atilla did build a very large but short-lived empire across Europe and Asia and their invasions accelerated the demise of the Western Roman Empire though.
     
  7. Lokki242

    Lokki242 That One Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,001
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    He's referring to Sword of Islam, the RFC modmod about the medieval middle east. There's a number of Turkic Central Asian states available to play, and he's suggesting you find one you like the most using that.
     
  8. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,122
    Location:
    Canada
    As I've said before, this is what I would envision for a Turkic state:

    Gokturks-->Uyghurs-->Karakhanids-->(KaraKhitan?)-->(Mongol conquest)-->Chagatai (maybe)-->Timurids(?)--> Shaybanids--> divided Turkic states in Central Asia to be gobbled up by Russia--> Kazakhstan/modern Central Asian Turkic states
     
  9. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    987
    Location:
    Hangzhou,China PR
  10. SeekTruthFromFacts

    SeekTruthFromFacts King

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    I love the way that DoC is developing on two different fora, in two different languages, in parallel, with just a few people (qiu, soul-breathing, youtien) keeping them together! :goodjob:

    Leoroth, it's your mod and you can do whatever you want with it... but this time you can get away with very little work if you want!
     
  11. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    9,728
    I always maintained that nomadic civilizations need to operate differently than regular Civ4 "Wonder building" civilizations.

    Nomadic empires, sometimes also called steppe empires, Central or Inner Asian empires, are the empires erected by the bow-wielding, horse-riding, nomadic peoples in the Eurasian steppe, from classical antiquity (Scythia) to the early modern era (Dzungars).

    Nomadic empires typically operated by establishing a capital city inside a conquered sedentary state, and then by exploiting the existing bureaucrats and commercial resources of that non-nomadic society. As the pattern is repeated, the originally nomadic dynasty becomes culturally assimilated to the culture of the occupied nation before its ultimate overthrow.

    Civ 4 engine is not designed to represent nomadic empires, they are represented by barbarians. If one see black city in Central Asia -- it does not mean void, it represents nomadic dynasty as described above.

    If you go through this list -- it will become clear that most Central Asian civs lasted 70-80 turns in DoC timeline.
    Timurids had more connection to Mughals than to Gokturks. Timeline of Turkic people customary starts with Gokturks and ends with end of Seljuks and rise of Osmans. No Timurids. Heirs of Timurids -- Khanates of Khiva and Bukhara are essentially sedentary Uzbek in nature (mix between Indo-European(Iranian) and Turkic). Meaning one either need to represent Central Asia with some pre-Timurid nomadic power (generalized Seljuks, 550-1350AD) or some Timurid++ sedentary civilization (1370-1920) which eventually became part of Russia.

    Creating 3rd Turkish civilization is overkill. One can rename Seljuks to Gokturks or Turkic people and make them appear earlier than DoC Seljuks in order for them to do the same thing to Persia and China in 600-700s as Seljuks did to Middle East in 1000s. There have been 3 Perso-Turkic wars before Seljuks and long history of Turkic-Chinese conflicts. They culminated with An Lushan Rebellion which firmly established itself in the top ten deadliest conflicts in the history of this planet. Any playable civilization (Uzbek/Timurid++) should start much later, between Mongol and Mughal spawn, center around Samarkand and be Muslim. UHVs should include Timurid goal (raze the middle east), Shaybanid goal (frustrate Russia and Persia, Khanate of Sibir was ruled by the Shaybanids) and Khiva/Bukhara cultural goal (1511–1920).
     
  12. Askiya

    Askiya Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    The Turkic peoples weren't entirely nomadic though. They had many cities in Central Asia, among them being Samarkand, Urganj, Khiva, and Kashgar. So it's perfectly fine to represent them like normal civs. And while Khiva was essentially Uzbek and Turkish, Turkey isn't 100% Turkish either. The population there is mostly descended from Islamized Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, and more. But they are still culturally Turkish, just like Khiva was part of the Turkic cultural sphere.
     
  13. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    9,728
    In the early part of its history, the inhabitants of the modern Uzbekistan were from Iranian stock and spoke an Eastern Iranian language called Khwarezmian. Subsequently the Iranian ruling class was replaced by Turkic people in the 10th century A.D, and the region gradually tuned into an area with a majority of Turkic speakers. None of the cities you have mentioned were founded by Turkic people, as I explained nomad capture ready to go cities and settle down. Central Asia is not the core for Turkic people, Altay mountains are.

    All I am saying is that if one absolutely has to place a civilization in Central Asia -- it has to be Uzbek people, not Turkic people. Non-playable Early "Seljuks" can represent (semi)nomadic Turkic people, which can "explode" twice -- first time against China/Late Persia (Gokturks), second time as Seljuks against Middle East. Playable sedentary Uzbeks can start with Timur and progress all the way to 1920s.
     
  14. BenZL43

    BenZL43 awkward cat

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    3,199
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indonesia
    My proposal is to spawn at Ordu Baliq in 330 AD as Rouran Khaganate. Xianbei people. One of the main goal is to control a continuous territory stretching from the Atlantic Ocean (Europe) to Pacific Ocean (Siberia). Gokturk actually had this ambition by invading Europe, arriving at Crimea and Taurus Chersonesos.. they could have gone much further.

    Tibet and Tang China should collapse them (Tibet actually took Beshbalik from them) that collapse them into civil war. Therefore there's no correlation between them and Seljuks.

    UP: Something related to their power of nomadic. If possible, maybe create movable city? Cost 1 settler to build a city and 2 settler to "uproot" the city with 70% (randomized) of the original building.

    UU: Something strong with horses, can enter and attack any territory similar to barbarians. Therefore this power only limited to the horses, their warrior can't enter city randomly < prevent OP

    UB: modification of Stable?

    CNM: Ordu Baliq (Karabalghasun), Samarqand, Balkh/Merv, Kashgar, Dunhuang, Artacoana.

    DCN:
    - Xianbei people (origin)
    - Rouran Khaganate (classical era)
    - Gokturk Empire (classical era, bEmpire)
    - Uyghur Khaganate (medieval era)
    - Khwarezm (bEmpire = false, Islam, capital = Central Asia)
    - Ghaznavid Empire (bEmpire = false, Islam, capital = Afghanistan / India)
    - Timurid Empire (vassal of Mongol)

    Not represented: Hun, Scythian, Hepthalites (all occasional barbarians)
     
  15. VGL

    VGL Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Iran,tehran
    what about removing Seljuks and representing them with central Asia? and there re spawn will be when the soviets IRL collapsed
     
  16. Theodorick

    Theodorick King

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    624
    To prevent them from messing up the Mongols, should they spawn in the centuries after the Mongols spawn, or would that not matter with the AI?
     
  17. VGL

    VGL Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Iran,tehran
    well, it's more fun preparing for mongols or becoming their vassals as soon as they spawn with world builder
     
  18. citis

    citis Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,480
    Spawning before between 300AD and 500AD and thery should win the game before Iranian spawn (1500AD). AI mongols will conquer them with conquerors and human mongol is strong enough to counter them.

    They should spawn at war with China, Russia, Persia, Mongols and be very isolationist.
     
  19. VGL

    VGL Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Iran,tehran
    Russia didn't have any intrest in them till somewhere between 16 and 19th century and maybe Persians should have an interest in Samarkand before they spawn and more when they spawn. Iran will also be war spawn with them.
     
  20. BenZL43

    BenZL43 awkward cat

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    3,199
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indonesia
    There's not enough fun left imo centuries after Mongols. The Central Asia was already divided into many Islamic emirates, until the arrival of Soviet ideology and become under the shadows of Russia to the modern era.

    I think this Turkic civilization should be at it's peak right before the rise of Caliphates, and by the time Seljuk spawn they should only be small states with some cities. Seljuk job is to weaken them even further and Mongol is to annihilate them and change the history of Central Asia forever - from nomadic horse nomads region to city-building and cotton-farming region.

    City building and wonder building civilization are already common in DoC. The challenge here is how to present a fun, steppe and nomadic kind of civilization, covering large distance, strong militarily and high mobility.

    Another UHV idea: Central Asia is home to many religion over the centuries. There were Hellenism, Shamanism, Zoroastrianism, Tengriism, Nestorianism (Christianity), Buddhism, Manichaeism, Islam, and Chinese religion from Chinese trader in the Silk Roads. How about this: have 5 different religion in your 5 most populated cities.
     

Share This Page