Central Asian civilization

[Leoreth]

No Turkic state really had anything to do with spreading Islam in significant numbers. The Middle East was already solidly Muslim when they arrived there.

 

[srpt]

Islam did spread to China through them though didn't it?

I think they should spawn in the Lake Balkhash area at the start of the Gokturk Qaganate (575ADish).

UHVs:

control the silk route ie ensure that China and the Middle East are connected overland.

control Central Asia, NW India and the Middle East in 1200AD (representing combined conquests of the Ghaznavids and Seljuks)

make Samarqand the richest and most cultural city in the world

you could steal the Khazar UP from RFCCW: defeated steppe barbarian units join your civ

the Timurid UP from SoI is also really cool: culture in your capital from capturing cities (in SoI its razing and massacres but it could be just capturing)

 

[Leoreth]

Islam did spread to China through them though didn't it?

Sure, but that's not really equivalent to the scope of what such a goal would imply.

I think they should spawn in the Lake Balkhash area at the start of the Gokturk Qaganate (575ADish).

UHVs:

control the silk route ie ensure that China and the Middle East are connected overland.

control Central Asia, NW India and the Middle East in 1200AD (representing combined conquests of the Ghaznavids and Seljuks)

make Samarqand the richest and most cultural city in the world

That sounds good, and encompasses all major eras.

you could steal the Khazar UP from RFCCW: defeated steppe barbarian units join your civ

the Timurid UP from SoI is also really cool: culture in your capital from capturing cities (in SoI its razing and massacres but it could be just capturing)

Yeah, my question about the Timurids was especially because I wanted to use the SoI UP. The Timurids have the most interesting game in SoI in my opinion.

 

[ezzlar]

Play a game of SoI and pick your poison?

 

[Leoreth]

Play a game of SoI and pick your poison?

 

[billyleeback16]

When you posted this I immediately thought of the Huns but on second thought they're better represented by barbarians or a Seljuk-like minor civ to make things harder for the Romans/Byzantines. They came from around the Caspian Sea and Atilla did build a very large but short-lived empire across Europe and Asia and their invasions accelerated the demise of the Western Roman Empire though.

 

[Lokki242]

He's referring to Sword of Islam, the RFC modmod about the medieval middle east. There's a number of Turkic Central Asian states available to play, and he's suggesting you find one you like the most using that.

 

[DC123456789]

As I've said before, this is what I would envision for a Turkic state:

Gokturks-->Uyghurs-->Karakhanids-->(KaraKhitan?)-->(Mongol conquest)-->Chagatai (maybe)-->Timurids(?)--> Shaybanids--> divided Turkic states in Central Asia to be gobbled up by Russia--> Kazakhstan/modern Central Asian Turkic states

 

[soul-breathing]

Kushans and Timurid for v1.11, by tanxishichao. He said he would release this modpack for v1.12 someday.

Introduction(in Chinese): http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3286671982

Downloads: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1mgmhqsC

Kushans:

Spoiler :

Timurids

Spoiler :

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

I love the way that DoC is developing on two different fora, in two different languages, in parallel, with just a few people (qiu, soul-breathing, youtien) keeping them together!

Leoroth, it's your mod and you can do whatever you want with it... but this time you can get away with very little work if you want!

 

[Tigranes]

I always maintained that nomadic civilizations need to operate differently than regular Civ4 "Wonder building" civilizations.

Nomadic empires, sometimes also called steppe empires, Central or Inner Asian empires, are the empires erected by the bow-wielding, horse-riding, nomadic peoples in the Eurasian steppe, from classical antiquity (Scythia) to the early modern era (Dzungars).

Nomadic empires typically operated by establishing a capital city inside a conquered sedentary state, and then by exploiting the existing bureaucrats and commercial resources of that non-nomadic society. As the pattern is repeated, the originally nomadic dynasty becomes culturally assimilated to the culture of the occupied nation before its ultimate overthrow.

Civ 4 engine is not designed to represent nomadic empires, they are represented by barbarians. If one see black city in Central Asia -- it does not mean void, it represents nomadic dynasty as described above.

If you go through this list -- it will become clear that most Central Asian civs lasted 70-80 turns in DoC timeline.
Timurids had more connection to Mughals than to Gokturks. Timeline of Turkic people customary starts with Gokturks and ends with end of Seljuks and rise of Osmans. No Timurids. Heirs of Timurids -- Khanates of Khiva and Bukhara are essentially sedentary Uzbek in nature (mix between Indo-European(Iranian) and Turkic). Meaning one either need to represent Central Asia with some pre-Timurid nomadic power (generalized Seljuks, 550-1350AD) or some Timurid++ sedentary civilization (1370-1920) which eventually became part of Russia.

Creating 3rd Turkish civilization is overkill. One can rename Seljuks to Gokturks or Turkic people and make them appear earlier than DoC Seljuks in order for them to do the same thing to Persia and China in 600-700s as Seljuks did to Middle East in 1000s. There have been 3 Perso-Turkic wars before Seljuks and long history of Turkic-Chinese conflicts. They culminated with An Lushan Rebellion which firmly established itself in the top ten deadliest conflicts in the history of this planet. Any playable civilization (Uzbek/Timurid++) should start much later, between Mongol and Mughal spawn, center around Samarkand and be Muslim. UHVs should include Timurid goal (raze the middle east), Shaybanid goal (frustrate Russia and Persia, Khanate of Sibir was ruled by the Shaybanids) and Khiva/Bukhara cultural goal (1511–1920).

 

[Askiya]

The Turkic peoples weren't entirely nomadic though. They had many cities in Central Asia, among them being Samarkand, Urganj, Khiva, and Kashgar. So it's perfectly fine to represent them like normal civs. And while Khiva was essentially Uzbek and Turkish, Turkey isn't 100% Turkish either. The population there is mostly descended from Islamized Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, and more. But they are still culturally Turkish, just like Khiva was part of the Turkic cultural sphere.

 

[Tigranes]

The Turkic peoples weren't entirely nomadic though. They had many cities in Central Asia, among them being Samarkand, Urganj, Khiva, and Kashgar. So it's perfectly fine to represent them like normal civs. And while Khiva was essentially Uzbek and Turkish, Turkey isn't 100% Turkish either. The population there is mostly descended from Islamized Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, and more. But they are still culturally Turkish, just like Khiva was part of the Turkic cultural sphere.

In the early part of its history, the inhabitants of the modern Uzbekistan were from Iranian stock and spoke an Eastern Iranian language called Khwarezmian. Subsequently the Iranian ruling class was replaced by Turkic people in the 10th century A.D, and the region gradually tuned into an area with a majority of Turkic speakers. None of the cities you have mentioned were founded by Turkic people, as I explained nomad capture ready to go cities and settle down. Central Asia is not the core for Turkic people, Altay mountains are.

All I am saying is that if one absolutely has to place a civilization in Central Asia -- it has to be Uzbek people, not Turkic people. Non-playable Early "Seljuks" can represent (semi)nomadic Turkic people, which can "explode" twice -- first time against China/Late Persia (Gokturks), second time as Seljuks against Middle East. Playable sedentary Uzbeks can start with Timur and progress all the way to 1920s.

 

[BenZL43]

My proposal is to spawn at Ordu Baliq in 330 AD as Rouran Khaganate. Xianbei people. One of the main goal is to control a continuous territory stretching from the Atlantic Ocean (Europe) to Pacific Ocean (Siberia). Gokturk actually had this ambition by invading Europe, arriving at Crimea and Taurus Chersonesos.. they could have gone much further.

Tibet and Tang China should collapse them (Tibet actually took Beshbalik from them) that collapse them into civil war. Therefore there's no correlation between them and Seljuks.

UP: Something related to their power of nomadic. If possible, maybe create movable city? Cost 1 settler to build a city and 2 settler to "uproot" the city with 70% (randomized) of the original building.

UU: Something strong with horses, can enter and attack any territory similar to barbarians. Therefore this power only limited to the horses, their warrior can't enter city randomly < prevent OP

UB: modification of Stable?

CNM: Ordu Baliq (Karabalghasun), Samarqand, Balkh/Merv, Kashgar, Dunhuang, Artacoana.

DCN:
- Xianbei people (origin)
- Rouran Khaganate (classical era)
- Gokturk Empire (classical era, bEmpire)
- Uyghur Khaganate (medieval era)
- Khwarezm (bEmpire = false, Islam, capital = Central Asia)
- Ghaznavid Empire (bEmpire = false, Islam, capital = Afghanistan / India)
- Timurid Empire (vassal of Mongol)

Not represented: Hun, Scythian, Hepthalites (all occasional barbarians)

 

[VGL]

what about removing Seljuks and representing them with central Asia? and there re spawn will be when the soviets IRL collapsed

 

[Theodorick]

To prevent them from messing up the Mongols, should they spawn in the centuries after the Mongols spawn, or would that not matter with the AI?

 

[VGL]

well, it's more fun preparing for mongols or becoming their vassals as soon as they spawn with world builder

 

[citis]

Spawning before between 300AD and 500AD and thery should win the game before Iranian spawn (1500AD). AI mongols will conquer them with conquerors and human mongol is strong enough to counter them.

They should spawn at war with China, Russia, Persia, Mongols and be very isolationist.

 

[VGL]

Russia didn't have any intrest in them till somewhere between 16 and 19th century and maybe Persians should have an interest in Samarkand before they spawn and more when they spawn. Iran will also be war spawn with them.

 

[BenZL43]

To prevent them from messing up the Mongols, should they spawn in the centuries after the Mongols spawn, or would that not matter with the AI?

There's not enough fun left imo centuries after Mongols. The Central Asia was already divided into many Islamic emirates, until the arrival of Soviet ideology and become under the shadows of Russia to the modern era.

I think this Turkic civilization should be at it's peak right before the rise of Caliphates, and by the time Seljuk spawn they should only be small states with some cities. Seljuk job is to weaken them even further and Mongol is to annihilate them and change the history of Central Asia forever - from nomadic horse nomads region to city-building and cotton-farming region.

City building and wonder building civilization are already common in DoC. The challenge here is how to present a fun, steppe and nomadic kind of civilization, covering large distance, strong militarily and high mobility.

Another UHV idea: Central Asia is home to many religion over the centuries. There were Hellenism, Shamanism, Zoroastrianism, Tengriism, Nestorianism (Christianity), Buddhism, Manichaeism, Islam, and Chinese religion from Chinese trader in the Silk Roads. How about this: have 5 different religion in your 5 most populated cities.