Challenge-II-05

Denniz

Denniz

Where's my breakfast?
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[IMG=right]http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/images/greatgeneral.jpg[/IMG]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running series of games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!​

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Religious (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: ANY
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Large
  • Map Type: Great Plains
  • Speed: Normal
  • Required: No Vassal States, No Tribal Villages
  • Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians, Random Personalities, Permanent Alliances, One City Challenge, Choose Religions
  • Civ: Celt (Brennus)
  • Opponents: Must include Arabia (Saladin), Egypt (Hatshepsut), Holy Roman Empire (Charlemange), India (Asoka), India (Gandhi), Khmer (Suryavarman), Mali (Mansa Musa), Spain (Isabella)
  • Version: 3.19.003
  • Date: 10th May to 10th September 2010
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
This looks like a rather less cheese-laden version of the AP victory than the one we saw in the recent Gauntlet.
I'm inclined to try it at Emperor, but if it works out fairly easily to move up.

The map size / number of AI is where this starts to get sticky. On the face of it, the 8 AI have a wide range of favourite civics, so you can't please enough of them that way. Then there are two (Saladin and Isabella) who prefer Theocracy and are likely to get very upset with you for running a different religion to their own.
Only two like Org Rel (Hattie and Suryavarman).

I get the feeling that there will be a few religious blocks appearing, and conflict with the opposing factions. This could be the kind of game where you can side with a large block against a series of smaller blocks who you attack - getting plus points for shared war.

The map is also not good for finding favourable starts. I would like something with trees, commerce (gold, gems, silver) and food. Even better a river-side plains hill. However, I'm finding nothing even remotely as good on a large Gt Plains map. The best I've seen so far has been abundant forest with marble, deer, other food.

The other sneaky annoyance is the barbarians. There's going to be a strong chance of getting your missionaries killed if they travel alone, while escorting them is a little troublesome (either slowly with melee units, or expensively with mounted).

It all adds up to a more interesting than the normal religious game. (Or do I mean frustrating?)
 
Failed last week at Prince. Tried today with Settler. I plan to try several levels and strategies. This time, I killed Izzy off right away rather than trying to make her an ally only to be back stabbed (last time). Raging barbs for higher score, but missionaries really need to be escorted and even then, not always a guarantee. I could have shaved a few years of guarding missionaries better. Everyone loved me and I got the whole map to be my religion (Confucianism). I founded all but Hinduism. I like raging barbs for liberating cities to gift back for diplo points. It is really tricky to find that last civ, so exploration is important.
 
I managed this one after two or three failed attempts at Emperor. 920AD, so I don't expect to be near the top come September.
I was fairly lucky a few times. First, that I completed the Oracle on turn 79 and nobody beat me to it! Then, that my nearest neighbours were less inclined to attack me than in my previous attempts. Finally, that the world aligned itself on two religions with a larger pool and a smaller pool, and I was able to adopt the majority religion quite near the end to get the votes.
I'm sure I can improve on this significantly, but there's time to try a few of the other challenges first.
 
I've played this on Deity and Immortal and Emperor and Noble levels. I am unable to spread the AP religion fast enough to get a victory in the BC years. Once I get to about 500AD, its just a matter of time before I'll get a crash to desktop as I scroll around the map screen. Large maps suck. (Huge is even worse, and I don't think I'll even bother trying the two huge challenges on anything above settler, and even then not sure I can win in time).

If anyone has some tips on how to win this one quickly, I'm interested.

I've toyed with the idea of playing it like a conquest game, just build up diplo by shared wars and kill off a lot of AI to make a simpler diplo situation. Think it could work? Probably not on Immortal with my skill level...

Another strategy I'm thinking could be useful is to hold off finishing the AP completion until most of the religion spreading is done... that way Hatty (or others) won't be as likely to mess up your plans by self-spreading it.
Of course, I obviously need to focus more on exploring, as I usually haven't even found where all the AI live until well into the AD years. Did I mention that Large maps suck?

I'd hate to drop down to settler level just to get this one done... I mean, yeah, its still a challenge to complete before a CTD occurs, but that's not really the kind of challenge that interests me. :badcomp:
 
kcd_swede said:
I've played this on Deity and Immortal and Emperor and Noble levels. I am unable to spread the AP religion fast enough to get a victory in the BC years. Once I get to about 500AD, its just a matter of time before I'll get a crash to desktop as I scroll around the map screen. Large maps suck. (Huge is even worse, and I don't think I'll even bother trying the two huge challenges on anything above settler, and even then not sure I can win in time).

If anyone has some tips on how to win this one quickly, I'm interested.

I've toyed with the idea of playing it like a conquest game, just build up diplo by shared wars and kill off a lot of AI to make a simpler diplo situation. Think it could work? Probably not on Immortal with my skill level...

Another strategy I'm thinking could be useful is to hold off finishing the AP completion until most of the religion spreading is done... that way Hatty (or others) won't be as likely to mess up your plans by self-spreading it.
Of course, I obviously need to focus more on exploring, as I usually haven't even found where all the AI live until well into the AD years. Did I mention that Large maps suck?

I'd hate to drop down to settler level just to get this one done... I mean, yeah, its still a challenge to complete before a CTD occurs, but that's not really the kind of challenge that interests me. :badcomp:
Click to expand...

I can't help much with Crash to Desktop issues, since I don't have them. I'd guess that your computer doesn't have enough memory (either main memory or graphics memory). Which operating system are you using? I suspect that Vista and 7 are more stable than older Microsoft operating systems. No doubt you are using the lowest screen resolution that your system and BtS will support and have turned off all videos and any other BtS bells, whistles and gongs (select the most basic graphics and audio settings).

How to Win Game #5:

The Start:

You should start with 2 or more Gems and Gold Tiles, preferably riverside. You must have enough Food to grow and support all your Mines. Your start should ideally start with 12+ Forests in the BFC and Ring 3 combined. Settle on a Plains Hill.

Barbarians:

Do not select Raging Barbarians. Even if one builds The Great Wall, it will be very difficult to get Missionaries to their target City without heavy escort. It's better to select Barbarians.

I would try building several Warriors to fog bust about 3 Tiles from one's Cultural Boundary all the way around, except where an AI Civ's Culture already exists.

To deal with Barbarians that still get through, a Barracks might be advisable. A Dun would make the Capital very secure +50% Defense plus free Guerrilla I promotions for all units that are permitted that promotion (basically Archers, so don't build it for the free Guerrilla I unless you can trade for Archery).

An early The Great Wall might be worthwhile, especially if one has Stone.

Try to trade for Iron Working as early as possible. If Iron is found inside one's Culture, connect it and you will be able to build Gallic Warrior who get free Guerrilla I with or without a Dun. A Gallic Warrior with Guerilla II can move 2 Tiles through any Hill; great for hilly starting locations. Immediately promote a Gallic Warrior to Guerilla II and block any Barbarian's path by placing it on a Hill (preferably Forested). Even Barbarian Axeman will die trying to attack a Guerilla II Gallic Warrior on a Hill. Promote the Gallic Warrior to Combat 1 and Shock to provide further defense against Axemen and to kill unpromoted Swordsman on the Flat.

Research path:

Bronze Working -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> build The Oracle -> Masonry -> Monotheism -> Writing -> complete The Oracle -> Theology -> Mathematics -> trade for Alphabet -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service -> Paper

The Apostolic Palace:

Spread the future TAP Religion to first five Civs, those most likely to vote for one's DV.

Do not complete The Apostolic Palace, until one is certain that the TAP Reliiogn can be spread to the remaining three Civs the turn before the the TAP Resolution is due. For Normal speed that would be 9 turns (TAP resolution cycle -1) after TAP is completed. These last three Civs are those who probably will not vote for one's DV and one has 1P or 2P Cities targeted for TAP Religion within these three AI Civ's Culture.

Favorite Civics:

Note that Favorite Civics will be one easy way to get Votes from some of the AI Civs:

Code: 
Asoka:        Free Religion (not viable to complete Liberalism)
Charlemagne:  Vassalage (could possibly complete Feudalism in time, but bonus will be low)
Gandhi:       Universal Suffrage (not viable to complete Democracy)
Hatshepsut:   Organized Religion
Isabella:     Theocracy
Mansa Musa:   Free Market (not viable to complete Economics)
Saladin:      Theocracy
Suryarman II: Organized Religion

Only Organized Religion and Theocracy Favorite Civics are really viable, and since they are both Religious Civics, one must pick one or the other for the Diplomatic bonus. Thus only 2 of 8 AI Civs can be made Pleased via Favorite Civics and of the two pairs, Saladin/Isabella and Hatshepsut/Suryarman II, the latter two will usually not like each other much, making additional Diplomacy with either one difficult. One solution would be added a few AI Civs with viable Favorite Civics like Wang Kon (Caste System), Joao II (Hereditary Rule), Ramesses II (Organized Religion) and maybe Hammurabi (Bureaucracy). However, for each AI Leader added, one must build an additional TAP Religion Missionary and get him to an AI Leader's City safely.

Diplomacy:

Throughout the entire Game, one must be planning how to get at least +8 Diplomacy with every AI Civ, if possible. The turn before the first TAP resolution (hopefully DV), one has a final chance to improve one's Diplomacy with all AI Civs. In all cases be wary of any Civ's Worst Enemy. In order to get at least +8 Diplomacy with most AI Civs, one may have to insult those AI Civs' Worst Enemy, effectively given up on the Civ's Worst Enemy, since the negative Diplomacy will almost certainly put one below +8 Diplomacy with their Worst Enemy. These Worst Enemy AI Civs are the one's to spread the TAP Religion to their smallest City (1P or 2P) the turn before the first TAP resolution is scheduled.

Warning: Make sure that no Civ has a TAP Religion Population of 75% or more. With eight AI Civs, this should be easy, but watch Hatshepsut and Mansa Musa, since they can sometimes quickly increase their TAP Religion Population rapidly by settling up to three TAP Religion Missionaries in their Cities within the same turn or so.

Good luck with the DV Vote:

Cast your vote and pray for no sudden Population changes that would adversely affect the DV resolution result.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
^Thanks for the tips, I'll let you know how they work out.

I find it interesting that you don't mention what religions to be running. This is for me the hardest part of the game, as the distribution of non-TAP religions seems to be luck-related. I'm pretty sure you want no civ runnnig the TAP as state religion, and can pretty much call it a day if that occurs. No State Religion is not an option while building the TAP. I assume the best case is that you have another religion that is used for common religion bonus with your target friendlies, switching to the TAP religion only 5 turns before the TAP is built so that you can go back to the common religion right after the TAP is built. Is it worth the expense/effort to try to spread your non-TAP religion to other civs?

In my games, it is often that I get a religion before many of my neighbors, but using the tech path that you outline (looks about the same as what I do), Monotheism (and OR) comes late so I cannot spread it to enough of them before the other religion-founders start spreading, or spontaneous spread messes things up.

It always turns out that I will need to get at least one civ friendly without common religion bonus, and that's hard to do if there is a negative "wrong faith" modifier. So I guess what you are saying is I need to get several civs to +8 while running NSR?

Sounds like a lot to ask... but I'm sure once I do it it will have looked easy.:lol: Maybe I'll get a game where 8 hindu civs have a love fest that I can join.

I haven't had difficulties with barbs, though.

How many cities are you settling? Just the capitol, or some more to help build units/missionaries/etc. How much is enough?


...


The CTD issue is definitely graphics memory, and all graphics/audio settings are at lowest value; but I'll check again to see if something changed back to a default value without me noticing.
 
I've been reading the above discussion with some interest, having played this game a few weeks ago (though I may come back to it later).
A few thoughts struck me:

Holding off on completing the AP
Why, yes! This hadn't occurred to me at the time. I just went ahead and finished it as fast as possible. This led to a long period when there could be no victory vote - some civs having the religion and others yet to receive it - when they were just doing their own thing about spreading religion in a haphazard fashion.
Of course, you can't hold off too long, or you'll be in a race, but you can just keep any eye on anyone else getting Theocracy.

Barbarians
Having played a number of times before getting the win, I feel that the barbs are a problem to your missionaries but not to your cities. This effect is only worrying in the early stages, when there are huge dark gaps to be travelled through between the civs territories. A few years later, the gaps have become very small - or gone completely - and AI military roams the gaps that remain.
I did try forming a protective chain of military on hill-tops in one game where I had started in the north-west corner and the rest of civilization was a train-ride away! Not a victory game, though, so I can't claim the tactic was a great success.
If you're lucky enough to get horses I suppose a chariot escort could be used...

Large Map
This is what set this game apart from all of the other religious victories I've ever played. I usually completed the AP when the locations of maybe 3 AI were still unknown, around turn 100 (did I mention I was not holding off on completing the AP?).
One tactic is to research Paper as early as possible and to trade maps. Looking back at my only success so far, I got Paper by turn 118 and was trading maps a few turns later. I had met everyone relatively early, though - the last one of the eight on turn 66.
 
TAP and non-TAP Religions:

kcd_swede said:
^Thanks for the tips, I'll let you know how they work out.

I find it interesting that you don't mention what religions to be running. This is for me the hardest part of the game, as the distribution of non-TAP religions seems to be luck-related. I'm pretty sure you want no civ runnnig the TAP as state religion, and can pretty much call it a day if that occurs. No State Religion is not an option while building the TAP. I assume the best case is that you have another religion that is used for common religion bonus with your target friendlies, switching to the TAP religion only 5 turns before the TAP is built so that you can go back to the common religion right after the TAP is built. Is it worth the expense/effort to try to spread your non-TAP religion to other civs?
Click to expand...

Unless, one tries to found another Religion, Christianity is often the only Religion suitable to be a TAP Religion.

For Challenge-II-5, there are 5 Opponents (Asoka, Charlemagne, Gandhi, Isabella and Saladin) that start with Mysticism. So, even though Brennus starts with Mysticism, there isn't much chance of completing Polytheism first and founding Buddhism at Prince and especially higher levels. There is still a good chance of completing Monotheism first and founding Judaism, assuming one makes at most one diversion (Priesthood to build The Oracle). Usually, one needs to be working 1-2 Gem/Gold Mines to pull ahead of the AI in the Religion races, at least at Deity level. A bee-line to Monotheism with a diversion to Priesthood is not an especially good path, since that causes Bronze Working to come much latter. It's best to start Pre-Chopping Forest somewhat early, but that requires early Bronze Working or very early Alphabet.

With several preChopped Forests and several Workers, it doesn't take very long to build The Apostolic Palace. Normally, it shouldn't take more than 10t with an Industrious Leader or with Mathematics. It will take longer with a non-Industrious Leader and no Mathematics. So, converting to Christianity for 10t shouldn't affect Diplomancy too much.

Monotheism too late to found Judaism:

kcd_swede said:
In my games, it is often that I get a religion before many of my neighbors, but using the tech path that you outline (looks about the same as what I do), Monotheism (and OR) comes late so I cannot spread it to enough of them before the other religion-founders start spreading, or spontaneous spread messes things up.
Click to expand...

I'm only researching Bronze Working and Priesthood before Monotheism, so I don't know what you mean by Monotheism being late. I usually complete Writing before Monotheism, so Monotheism is completed just before taking Theology for completing The Oracle.

In any case, you don't want to be building non-TAP Religion Missionaries. Let the AI Leaders do that job; they can do it better than us, anyway. In fact, you don't want to found any Religion except Christianity.

State Religion or No State Religion to improve Diplomacy:

kcd_swede said:
It always turns out that I will need to get at least one civ friendly without common religion bonus, and that's hard to do if there is a negative "wrong faith" modifier. So I guess what you are saying is I need to get several civs to +8 while running NSR?
Click to expand...

One will usually be better off with No State Religion, especially the turn before the DV resolution comes up. The only way a State Religion can be better is when 4 (or more) of 8 Civs share the non-TAP Religion you have and most of those Leaders are very religious (provide a large Religious Diplomatic bonus over time).

Number of Cities to Build:

kcd_swede said:
How many cities are you settling? Just the capitol, or some more to help build units/missionaries/etc. How much is enough?
Click to expand...

One City is all you need for The Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory. The Hammers it costs to build a Settler are better spent building one and 2/3 Workers.

On the other hand, since 8 Missionaries are needed for the base set of Opponents, it may make sense to build a second City that can build Missionaries while the Capital builds TAP.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
The current Settler to Deity handicap for Religious Games is +54 turns, so:

Current #1 Game = Settler turn 96 Win = Deity turn (96-54) = Deity turn 42

I can tell you that it is impossible to achieve a Deity turn 41 Win with these settings. I don't think I could even complete Writing, Monotheism and The Oracle for Theology by turn 41, much less build 8 Missionaries and The Apostolic Palace and wait 10 turns for the RL DV Resolution.

There is no way a Deity level Game can complete with a Settler level Game for this challenge. It will only get worst, when a faster Settler Game becomes #1.

Put another way, a Deity level Game must Win in less than half the number of turns (41) of the current Settler level #1 Game (96 turns) to become the new #1 Game.

Lower Difficulty levels should be handicapped; not the other way around.

I love a good Challenge, but this Challenge at Deity level is quite impossible. The Difficulty turn adjustment should equalize the differences between Difficulty levels; not make one level the easiest respect to all the other levels (plus handicap Deity completely out of the competition).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Well.... just gave up on an emperor level attempt. Would have won if I could have switched to Bhudism. But depiste planting multiple cities and closing borders with all but the Bhudist block, I could not get a single city to get Bhudism before one of the bad guys had gotten Christianity and spread it enough to block any victory vote.

sigh...

I'm only researching Bronze Working and Priesthood before Monotheism, so I don't know what you mean by Monotheism being late.
Click to expand...

By "late" I meant "too late to be able to spread a common non-TAP religion to the AI lacking an early religion". But having read your latest suggestions, I won't waste time trying to do that in future attempts. :blush:

The current Settler to Deity handicap for Religious Games is +54 turns, so:

Current #1 Game = Settler turn 96 Win = Deity turn (96-54) = Deity turn 42
Click to expand...

Huh? Have the HOF deity level religios games been on average 54 turns faster than those on settler, and that's being used to compare different difficulty levels? Makes no sense. The handicap should always go the other direction, shouldn't it?
 
kcd_swede said:
Huh? Have the HOF deity level religios games been on average 54 turns faster than those on settler, and that's being used to compare different difficulty levels? Makes no sense. The handicap should always go the other direction, shouldn't it?
Click to expand...

I don't really understand how Denniz came up with the Game 5 Deltas, but what you said seems plausible. We are fools for playing Game 5 on a Difficulty level higher than Settler. I'm going to give this a few days to settle down and if it doesn't I'll just play the best Settler level Game I can and hope that will fix it.

This post probably should be it the main Challenge Series II thread, because it is exclusively Turn Delta specific, though limited to Game 5. So, maybe it's OK here?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Ahh - my favorite victory type

... and here's the strategy (lower levels)

- regenerate until you get a spot near the middle of the map, in the slice between the plains and the forests. Try to get a PH start (1 settle move is OK), at least two food resources (normally cows) and 3 or more forests.

- Scout should locate all other civs

Research: AH - Writing (immediately OB with everyone) - Alphabet (trade for BW, Poly, Pottery) - Masonry - Mono(OR) - Priest - Mathe

Buildorder: Worker - Stonehenge - Warrior - Scout - Oracle(Theology) - Missionaries..... - AP
Worker: improve tiles - prechop - chop (and build some roads to speed up missionaries)

Send 1st missionaries to the farthermost civs (hint: to save turns grant the missionary to the target civ as soon as he enters the border). If you can't build a missionary build AP. Chop everything in vicinity.

2-3 turns before AP is completed start granting techs to the civs to raise "glance" level

Have fun :)
 
Very good Turn 101 (BC 350) Settler Win!

HolyHandGrenade said:
Ahh - my favorite victory type

... and here's the strategy (lower levels)

- regenerate until you get a spot near the middle of the map, in the slice between the plains and the forests. Try to get a PH start (1 settle move is OK), at least two food resources (normally cows) and 3 or more forests.

- Scout should locate all other civs

Research: AH - Writing (immediately OB with everyone) - Alphabet (trade for BW, Poly, Pottery) - Masonry - Mono(OR) - Priest - Mathe

Buildorder: Worker - Stonehenge - Warrior - Scout - Oracle(Theology) - Missionaries..... - AP
Worker: improve tiles - prechop - chop (and build some roads to speed up missionaries)

Send 1st missionaries to the farthermost civs (hint: to save turns grant the missionary to the target civ as soon as he enters the border). If you can't build a missionary build AP. Chop everything in vicinity.

2-3 turns before AP is completed start granting techs to the civs to raise "glance" level

Have fun :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing this strategy.

I agree that starting in the middle of the Map will be very helpful, especially at the lower Difficulty levels.

I will share my strategy once I get a very early Win accepted to validate it. It would be foolish for me to provide any strategy tips for the lower Difficulty levels, given my extreme lack of experience at them. For example, I thought Raging Barbarians would cause trouble for the AIs and even me at Settler level, but at -40% Strength, the Barbarians are a threat only to undefended non-Military units.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Sun Tzu Wu said:
Very good Turn 101 (BC 350) Settler Win!
Click to expand...
Good date! Of course, you do realize that your/our best Deity game was turn 85 (750 BC). Still a -15 turn difference is better than -54. From your experience with settler religous, do think settler is easier?
 
Denniz said:
Good date! Of course, you do realize that your/our best Deity game was turn 85 (750 BC). Still a -15 turn difference is better than -54. From your experience with settler religous, do think settler is easier?
Click to expand...

My turn 85 (BC 750) Win was done with settings optimized for an early Win. Challenge Series II Game 5 has fixed settings that make it much more challenging. The three most challenging settings are the required AI Opponents, Barbarians, and the Great_Plains Map.

Required AI Opponents:

The AI Opponents are selected from Low, Middle and High Peace Weights, thus there will be several Worst Enemy situations where it will become impossible to improve all AIs Diplomacy; the Diplomatic situation can be so bad that not even four AI's Diplomacy can be improved to +8 without destroying the other four AI's Diplomacy.

Required Barbarian Setting:

Due to this setting, TAP Religion Missionaries may not even reach their target City unescorted. In a Settler game it is much easier to build escort units without much effect on the Win Date. Building escort units in a Diety game would have a greater effect on the Win Date. Barbarian Warriors/Archers in a Settler Game do not even appear until the Game is almost over. In my Deity Games, I've been plagued by too many early Barbarian Warriors, Barbarian Archers, Barbarian Spearmen, Barbarian Axemen pillaging my improved Tiles starting as early as turn 11-15 or so. Lately, I've been having better success with fog busting using 2-3 Warriors, but that only seems to work when my City is right on a corner of the Map and thus there's much less area to fog bust.

Required Great_plains Map:

For an early Deity Win, it is essential to have at least two Gold/Gems Mines, but on a Great_plains Map this is only possible on the western edge of the Map. Exploring the entire Map and sending Missionaries across the entire breath of the Map takes more Time, severely impacting the Win Date. The ideal starting position would be close to the Center of this Map, but there are no forests there which are really needed to build The Apostolic Palace very quickly. Since the Settler Game Technologies are less than half the size of Deity Technologies, a Settler Game doesn't need any Gold/Gems Mines to achieve a Good Win Date. A Settler Game could use either the Western or Eastern Edge of the Map where there may be more Forests closer to the Center of the Map.

My conclusion so far is Settler level definitely has a strong advantage over Deity level in this Game, but probably not as much advantage that it has in the other Games (TUN Diplomatic, Space Colony, Cultural, Domination and especially Conquest).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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