Challenge-V-08

Assuming my submission is accepted...

24826 score
1638 base score
37 pop
Wonders: Oracle, Pyramids, HG, GLib, Broadway, Cristo, Oxford, NE, WStreet, NPark, Globe, UN...that's all I remember.

1615AD Diplo victory using Bismark. Turn 233/500

Obviously not going to compete with the religious victories, but I refuse to go with that cheese except the challenge game where it is the necessary VC.

I'll try another Diplo with a philo leader and try to get it in the first third of the timeline with ~25 pop. The score should improve, but maybe not enough to overtake the religious VC crowd.

cas
 
Obviously not going to compete with the religious victories, but I refuse to go with that cheese except the challenge game where it is the necessary VC.

I hear you. I had suggested the settings for this game and had envisioned a Sushi driven score with help from trading for sushi resources combined with great merchant settling. Kaitzilla's 100 population game inspired this idea. It was not intended to be a religious victory game.

That being said, the playing field is really leveled and quick games can lead to many submissions and increased competition.

Besides, who doesn't love wonders?
 
Obviously not going to compete with the religious victories, but I refuse to go with that cheese except the challenge game where it is the necessary VC.

I'll try another Diplo with a philo leader and try to get it in the first third of the timeline with ~25 pop. The score should improve, but maybe not enough to overtake the religious VC crowd.

Why do you play this challenge according to your own additional restrictions (won't invoke a RL DV) and yet lament the fact that you may as a result fail to be competitive with those who do not share your personal restrictions?

The best players will use every legal tactic they can think of and more to produce a #1 game and do not normally impose additional restrictions upon themselves.

I somethings add my own restrictions too, but never any that will make the game harder to win with a better date or better score.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I hope some of the good players at least try some other strategies. I'm not yet convinced that fast RL DV is the best. Perhaps an RL DV with milking... but depending on how much milking, other VC's should become plausible.
 
Why do you play this challenge according to your own additional restrictions (won't invoke a RL DV) and yet lament the fact that you may as a result fail to be competitive with those who do not share your personal restrictions?

The best players will use every legal tactic they can think of and more to produce a #1 game and do not normally impose additional restrictions upon themselves.

I somethings add my own restrictions too, but never any that will make the game harder to win with a better date or better score.

Sun Tzu Wu

'Lament' is a little strong. I'm just expressing an opinion, not grief.

I'm not concerned about trying to be #1 or one of the 'best players'. I do enjoy reading other players' strategies and try to implement them into my game to improve and have fun.

As kcd_swede said, I'll try something different rather than just assume 100% AP is the best and only way. It probably is...but what fun is there when everyone just tries the exact same strategy on a challenge that has so many open parameters (civ, AI, map, method of victory, etc).

Anyway, I know you really like AP victories...but I don't 99% of the time. ;)

Cheers.

cas
 
'Lament' is a little strong. I'm just expressing an opinion, not grief.

I'm not concerned about trying to be #1 or one of the 'best players'. I do enjoy reading other players' strategies and try to implement them into my game to improve and have fun.

As kcd_swede said, I'll try something different rather than just assume 100% AP is the best and only way. It probably is...but what fun is there when everyone just tries the exact same strategy on a challenge that has so many open parameters (civ, AI, map, method of victory, etc).

Anyway, I know you really like AP victories...but I don't 99% of the time. ;)

Cheers.

cas

I plan to do the same. One thing I will try is to download an "ad hoc query" and search for OCC games and use someone's 1 AD and 1000 AD saves to quickly evauate strategies without having to labor over the early years.
 
OK... I got one to at least kick off my HoF CS-V participation.

Religious victory. 101 land score, 109 pop score (or other way around) 191 tech score, and 129 wonder score. Finished late (because I am very out of practice with RL DV), missed the first vote due to missionary failure, had to sit through an election, then wait to infect. Then I lose the vote because forgot to switch religion after voting. And had to wait for the next one. :blush: About 500AD... and went for Philo stupidly to get another religion/shrine, but someone else got there first. Should have gone for cheaper techs to get score. Also, forgot to trade for all tech I could get on last turn, so should have been higher score for that... but well... at 23500 or thereabouts, this isn't going to exactly be a really good game anyhow. Probably will re-play it... at least its a fast game. :p
 
Well I have been trying for a few days for this challenge and it wasnt easy. My score is just below kcd_swede by 50 points. I should have stolen civil service the turn before.
I had really hard time to win a religious victory. In discussions among my friends two options came up. Assure that the world has one dominant religion a be in that religion during voting, where each ai has a small city with AP religion. The other option being be best friends forever with one big guy and spread AP religion in every one of his cities then use espionage to switch him to another religion.
The second option requires a lot of missionaries and is nearly impossible because of wars hence close borders. The first option makes sense but the question is who are the opponent civs. I choose suleiman, cathreine,gilgamesh, ragnar (or louis XIV) for heridatery civic bonus and isabella and catherine so one would spam her religion all over the place.
how do you guys approach, do you try to get all religions or you dont get religions at all, who do you choose as opponents.
 
domination victory with a Permanent Alliance for fun. I thought maybe my score would be some combination or average but alas it was not the case. A pitiful score I think, but still fun to get domination with a OCC :)
 
I haven't been able to condense a diplo victory into the first third of the game yet. Even with a great mapfinder start and luck with GPeople, I seem to be ~15 turns short of the goal.

Looks like AP victory will win easily.

cas
 
how do you guys approach, do you try to get all religions or you dont get religions at all, who do you choose as opponents.

I use Hatty and Ramesses (organised religion), Joao (Hereditary Rule), Wang (Caste System), Hammurabi (Bureaucracy) as well as Gandhi and Zara (hidden +2 diplo bonus) as opponents.
 
I use Hatty and Ramesses (organised religion), Joao (Hereditary Rule), Wang (Caste System), Hammurabi (Bureaucracy) as well as Gandhi and Zara (hidden +2 diplo bonus) as opponents.

You really know how to stack the deck for Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory! Most of those Favorite Civic gambits should pay off well when RL DV is on the line.

Good luck with your games!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Well I have been trying for a few days for this challenge and it wasnt easy. My score is just below kcd_swede by 50 points. I should have stolen civil service the turn before.
I had really hard time to win a religious victory. In discussions among my friends two options came up. Assure that the world has one dominant religion a be in that religion during voting, where each ai has a small city with AP religion. The other option being be best friends forever with one big guy and spread AP religion in every one of his cities then use espionage to switch him to another religion.
The second option requires a lot of missionaries and is nearly impossible because of wars hence close borders. The first option makes sense but the question is who are the opponent civs. I choose suleiman, cathreine,gilgamesh, ragnar (or louis XIV) for heridatery civic bonus and isabella and catherine so one would spam her religion all over the place.
how do you guys approach, do you try to get all religions or you dont get religions at all, who do you choose as opponents.

I played this one with Elizabeth, Lincoln, Mansa Musa, Frederick, Hatshupset, and Gandhi. None are industrious. They will most likely love each other and not ask you to stop trading with anybody else. I found Confusciounism (one the way to Oracling Civil Service) and send the missionary to my nearest neighbor that doesn't have a state religion (so he won't take christianity if it auto spreads). I send my first Christian missionary to Hatshupset in hopes that she will spread it to all of her cities. She will be the only one you really need to share a civic with, and you probably don't even need that. Spread Christianity to the smallest city of the other civs in case they decide not to vote for you. Make sure you are running Christianity when you build the AP. The switch out when you need to get the votes.

If you share open borders, and have "many years of peace", and get your +4 trade diplo, you should be able to get all of these civs to vote for you. Just make sure they are not running christianity. Run OR, but choose "no state religion" to ensure you get Hatty's votes. In my tries, I didn't even sweat the vote. You can gift away early resources for a "you have provided us resources" diplo
point. This really shouldn't be necessary, but needs to be done as early as possible if you want to get the point in time for the vote.

I don't try to get all the religions. I don't want Hinduism, Buddhism, or Judaism. I want these religions dispersed amongst the AI. I don't mind getting Taoism for the extra shrine and monestary.
 
You really know how to stack the deck for Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory! Most of those Favorite Civic gambits should pay off well when RL DV is on the line.

Sun Tzu Wu

now I have a question. how does you have wisely chosen your civics bonus work. I guess it doesnt work with pyramids because the info screen show req. constitution for representation bonus. Maybe i should put it more precise
-We dont have the required techs but have pyramids can we get the bonus
-the longer we stay on that civic the more bonus we get right?
-what about AI civic choice. Does the AI have to adopt the same civic so we can get the bonus. If so what happens if the ai changes the civic. If it is not about civic choice do they have to meet the tech requirements to love us.
and the most interesting one
-do they love me more if I am the only one that adopts that civic or it is irrevelant. Say if I have all the leaders with who have heridatery rule as fav. civic which give +1-4 bonus. Do I get the same or more if have five leaders with five different favourite civics(+1-4 bonus) and adopt all those civics.

Its interesting that such a small detail in the game becomes so crucial.
 
now I have a question. how does you have wisely chosen your civics bonus work. I guess it doesnt work with pyramids because the info screen show req. constitution for representation bonus. Maybe i should put it more precise
-We dont have the required techs but have pyramids can we get the bonus

Yes:

For example, either you or the AI Leader that has Representation as a favorite civic must have Constitution; the other doesn't need Constitution if it owns The Pyramids. Same thing for Hereditary Rule: either you or the AI Leader must have the enabling Technology of Monarchy or own The Pyramids. Thus it doesn't matter how you or the AI Leader are able the run the favorite civic as long as both of you are running it.

Note that the required Technology to run the favorite civic is very important in itself though. It determines which in eras a favorite civic is viable. Early favorite civics like Organized Religion are viable only from the Classical Era until AIs start running Free Religion. Here again, Representation is a good example of a favorite civic that is viable only from the Renaissance Era to Modern Era.

-the longer we stay on that civic the more bonus we get right?

Yes:

One gets a favorite civic bonus with an AI Leader only as long as both you and the AI are running their favorite civic. The bonus starts at +1 and increments every 10t to the AI Leader's maximum favorite civic bonus.

-what about AI civic choice. Does the AI have to adopt the same civic so we can get the bonus. If so what happens if the ai changes the civic. If it is not about civic choice do they have to meet the tech requirements to love us.
and the most interesting one

As soon as you or the AI Leader switch to a different civic, you lose the entire bonus. If you or the AI Leader switch back quickly you should regain your previous favorite civic bonus. However, the resumption bonus will decline over time the longer both of you are not running the AI Leader's favorite civic.

-do they love me more if I am the only one that adopts that civic or it is irrevelant. Say if I have all the leaders with who have heridatery rule as fav. civic which give +1-4 bonus. Do I get the same or more if have five leaders with five different favourite civics(+1-4 bonus) and adopt all those civics.

The favorite civic bonus improves only every 10t and only to the specific AI Leader's maximum. It doesn't matter how many or how few AI Leader's share the favorite civic, the bonus is the same up to each AI Leader's maximum bonus for favorite civic.

Additional thoughts:

You can have a maximum of five different civics, one per each civic category. However, you can have multiple AI Leaders with the same favorite civic. For example, Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Suryavarman II and Brennus all have Organized Religion as their favorite civic. However, it is usually only practical to have two of these four in any game, since their peace weights range from the highest (9), Hatshepsut, to the lowest (0), Brennus. Hatshepsut (9) and Ramesses II (6) usually get along ok. Also, Suryavarman II (1) and Brennus (0) will get along with each other as well as any pair of low peace weight leaders does.

Only a single civic matters for the favorite civic bonus, the AI Leader's favorite civic. No other civic matters for the favorite civic bonus to apply and no other civic will increase the bonus nor does the # AI Leaders running the favorite civic have any effect on the size of the bonus.

Note that is may be possible to bribe an AI Leader to adopt its favorite civic (as long as its been at least 5 turns since this AI Leader has done a civics change). This tactic may have limited effectiveness when the AI Leader doesn't really want to stay in its favorite civic, such as Hatshepsut staying in Organized Religion when she wants Free Religion, because she has 3-4 religions in every city and badly wants the Happiness bonus. Sometimes the cost of the bribe is free when the AI Leader would have done it on its own, eventually; but why wait, when a zero cost bribe will do the trick?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
now I have a question. how does you have wisely chosen your civics bonus work. I guess it doesnt work with pyramids because the info screen show req. constitution for representation bonus. Maybe i should put it more precise
-We dont have the required techs but have pyramids can we get the bonus
-the longer we stay on that civic the more bonus we get right?
-what about AI civic choice. Does the AI have to adopt the same civic so we can get the bonus. If so what happens if the ai changes the civic. If it is not about civic choice do they have to meet the tech requirements to love us.
and the most interesting one
-do they love me more if I am the only one that adopts that civic or it is irrevelant. Say if I have all the leaders with who have heridatery rule as fav. civic which give +1-4 bonus. Do I get the same or more if have five leaders with five different favourite civics(+1-4 bonus) and adopt all those civics.

Its interesting that such a small detail in the game becomes so crucial.

I did not mention it before, but I almost always give in to demands for techs or gold in the religious victory games. I actually am pleased when the AI demands these things. I will rarely say no unless it means giving something that will give the AI too large of an advantage. (For example, I would decline a demand for theology before I have the AP built.)
 
What sounds promising to me right now is TAP with Archipelago map, Globe Theatre and National Park plus very early Sid's Sushi and maybe Mining Inc. Just never spread Sid's Sushi or Mining, Inc and buy all excess resources for these two corporations from all the friendly AIs. Once you have Sid's Sushi, maximize its resources via Wealth trades and your capital should grow 1 Pop per turn without limit. Just pull the TAP trigger when your Score approaches a standstill before it starts to sag.

Caveats: It may not be possible to complete Medicine and Corporation soon enough for this to work. 1 Pop per turn growth may not be enough this late in the game to cause Score to increase to some yet to be determined maximum, a significant amount of turns later.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
What sounds promising to me right now is TAP with Archipelago map, Globe Theatre and National Park plus very early Sid's Sushi and maybe Mining Inc. Just never spread Sid's Sushi or Mining, Inc and buy all excess resources for these two corporations from all the friendly AIs. Once you have Sid's Sushi, maximize its resources via Wealth trades and your capital should grow 1 Pop per turn without limit. Just pull the TAP trigger when your Score approaches a standstill before it starts to sag.

Caveats: It may not be possible to complete Medicine and Corporation soon enough for this to work. 1 Pop per turn growth may not be enough this late in the game to cause Score to increase to some yet to be determined maximum, a significant amount of turns later.

Sun Tzu Wu

I tried this. I couldn't top the biology growth. With enough time spent on mapfinder, it may be possible with the perfect map. (Commerce tiles, marble, stone, good food and limited ocean tiles).
 
I tried one, just to get it in. Picked Egypt, rainforest, went for AP cheese.

I didn't unselect barbs... I haven't seen that many barbs ever. By 1 AD, I had killed over 50 of them, losing only a warchariot when I didn't pay attention that an axe had moved next to it.

I couldn't get missionairies out, there were so many of them.

I'll try again without barbs ;)
 
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