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Challenge-V-09

Discussion in 'Hall of Fame Challenger Series' started by Ozbenno, Jun 4, 2011.

  1. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

    Settings:
    • Victory Condition: Religious (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Emperor
    • Starting Era: Ancient
    • Map Size: Standard
    • Map Type: Boreal
    • Speed: Quick
    • Required: Raging Barbarians
    • Must Not Be Checked: One City Challenge, No Barbarians
    • Civ: Holy Roman Empire (Charlemange)
    • Opponents: Must include America (Franklin Roosevelt), Aztec (Montezuma), Carthage (Hannibal), China (Mao Zedong), Japan (Tokugawa), Native America (Sitting Bull)
    • Version: 3.19.003
    • Date: 6th June to 6th October 2011
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
     
  2. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

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    This looks tough to me. Boreal is very commerce poor, if I'm thinking of the right map. That will add to the challenge of having meaningful techs to trade and it will be interesting to see the stories of balancing the maniac opponents listed and escorted missionaries from the raging barbs. Even if you build the GW, there's probably going to be barbs hungry for your missionaries in other lands. :)
     
  3. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    With mapfinder, you should be able to crank out several maps with 2-3 gems, deer and sheep. Stone can be found too.
     
  4. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Chariot or even Horse Archer escort for one's Missionaries may be a better option than just taking your chances ending one's Missionary move next to a Barbarian military unit. One might also try Scouts, not for protecting, but as a decoy target that the Barbarian unit would pursue rather than the Missionary.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  5. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

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    I have a handful of attempts in on these settings and just need some luck, I think. What seems to be the biggest hurdle so far is that I have yet to roll a map where you're close enough to Aztec and Japan - especially Japan - to either take them out or spread them TAP religion before he's too cheesed to open borders with you. The other leaders, as well as the "friendly folks" I added, don't seem to be a problem, and getting the votes doesn't seem like it will be out of reach, but until Japan is gone or gets TAP religion, that doesn't help. :)

    It's a flat map, so i thought that wrapping it might help me find Toku more quickly, but it has to remain flat, as per the rules. It hasn't happened yet where I met Toku and opened borders (which I believe he'll do if I gift him some tech) before I wanted to convert to TAP religion and build the AP. It hasn't been convenient to switch to his religion to get him happy enough either, as it's rare to have it spread much. In three games, Monte founded Buddhism, spread it to Japan, and then they sit back and throw insults at all the "heathens."

    For a religious game, it seems slow. Techs, wonders, etc have gone late in the tries I've had so far. Might be the map, but I expected Emperor AI would have more advantage than it has shown so far. I have been able to find enough gems to be competitive and the "scout bait" works pretty well. It's been hit or miss whether I had horse, but horse units are certainly preferable for missionary protection detail and final map discovery. Scouts don't seem to last that long, not matter how careful I am. I want to unfog the map with them, which just means you end up finding hungry barbs.

    Also, I enabled vassal states, thinking that if the games went far enough, I might appreciate the ability to vassal someone when they get frisky, but they cheese everyone else off first seemingly. Because of the pace and inability to either knock off or get everyone the TAP religion, the games are going plenty far enough for Feudalism. I think I will disable vassal states to make sure that they either comply or go away. In my most recent attempt, Toku ended up the vassal of Hatty, whose votes would have been paramount. I played another 20 or so turns and she didn't even have open borders with him. meh

    Been fun so far. Now, just need a win. ;)
     
  6. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Send a settler and missionary to Toku. Settle on his border, spread your religion, then gift him the city. Done!
     
  7. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

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    :o

    Thanks, shulec!
     
  8. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Beware, you may get a "you traded with our worst emeny!" diplo hit. I know thats hard to believe because Toku is such a likable fella!
     
  9. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

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    Worked like a charm. I even named the city "Trojan Horse" and he still took it. :lol: I know, I know.
     
  10. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    :lol:

    Good stuff.
     
  11. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Excellent. That's a good way to get around not having Open Borders.

    If you have Alphabet you can give a big Technology and that is usually enough to get them to Open Borders and allow your Missionary to spread the TAP Religion to the desired City.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  12. AgedOne

    AgedOne Emperor

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    I've submitted one. :blush: 1852AD :blush:

    Odd game, and this is an odd scenario.
    You can't really rely on Civics to get AI on your side until very late into the game, so I set about cornering as many Religions myself in an attempt to marshall several civs into sharing one with me. That didn't work, as the 3 religions I didn't found got scattered around the civs so that only ones and twos had each. After sharing Judaism with a couple for a while, I went to no-fixed-religion.
    My nearest neighbour was Tokugawa, and I had to keep him happy to avoid attacks. This worked very nicely, and after a shared war he ended up +14 and was my best friend :mischief:.
    Basically the whole game hinged upon Toku (and then Montezuma) declaring on Sitting Bull. I joined in, and the mutual war thing, plus full trading, made these my main voting partners. My AP religion (Confucianism) was spread well amongst their cities, and I could see that we had enough votes between the 3 of us to get my victory.
    Then . . . no vote came up :confused:. I checked, and found that the only one of Sitting Bull's cities that had Confucianism had been captured, so he was no longer a voting member :mad:.
    I encouraged Toku and Monty to wipe out Sitting Bull, which they did - eventually.
    As soon as they had removed him from the equation, I won the next vote :).

    Very very slow, and I'm sure I can improve on it, but as has been said this is not easy. Not easy at all, with this mix of civs.
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    One could add Hatshepsut and even Ramesses II whose favorite civic of organized religion can be adopted very early in the game. Just steer the game towards either one of these two opponents and yourself having over 75% of the TAP religion population, but none of you having a TAP population that too close to 75%.

    Diversion regarding an opponent being "over" 75% of TAP religion: In a recent three player RL DV game, Hatshepsut grew to pop 7, Ramesses II dropped to pop 1 and I was at pop 2. Although Hatshepsut had only 70% of the TAP religion population, it was close enough due to how the game rounds off such things to prevent the RL DV option from coming up that turn as it normally would have. Next turn, my pop grew to 3 and the RL DV option became available, because Hatshepsut's TAP religion population was no longer too close to 75%.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. AgedOne

    AgedOne Emperor

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    Interesting that you should mention this in relation to this particular game, Sun Tzu Wu.
    It is a very tried and trusted technique that I have used many times in Religious victory games (until I grew quite bored with it, if truth be told) however, I have normally only used it when the choice of opponents was completely under my control. Even better on a small or tiny map, where the three of you comprise a larger proportion of the world's population.

    You are advocating increasing the number of AI from the 6 that are dictated by the scenario up to 8, aren't you?

    You would still have a lot of work to do, getting the 3 of you to become over 75% of the score for TAP religion, but I can see that it is a strategy worth exploring in my next attempt!
    The crucial fact is that it is the religious population of the world that is significant, and not the overall population (as in a UN victory). It is much easier to imagine 'arranging things' so that 75% of the world's (say) Confucian population was shared between 3 civs, than to imagine holding 75% of the world's total population. That would involve considerable violence against some fearsome opposition. This just (!) requires careful control of the spread of TAP religion.

    Thank you for the thoughts!
     
  15. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Give TAP Religion Missionaries to your friends, usually after they have founded their own religion. It is ok for them to spread TAP Religion as long as it doesn't become more popular than the current State Religion.

    To your enemies, TAP Religion Missionaries should spread TAP Religion to the smallest and most isolated (no roads yet) city. The last three Missionaries should go to your enemies at the last possible turn, just before the TAP RL DV resolution is scheduled to come up, 7t after TAP is built, or a multiple thereof, including delays.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  16. AgedOne

    AgedOne Emperor

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    All good advice, STW. I do know it. It's just putting it into practice that I have problems with.:think:
     
  17. AgedOne

    AgedOne Emperor

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    @colonelmustard
    Well! That was . . . better than my game, wasn't it.
    OK. The challenge is on. I'll have another go :trouble:
     
  18. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

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    :D I had a few games to gather up and submit, and this was one of them that was complete. I'm pretty sure it is the "Trojan Horse" city game. :lol: thanks again, shulec. You can do it, AO!
     
  19. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I've had a couple tries at this. It is hard trying to contain the spread of the AP religion. In both games one AI has adopted the AP religion (after having another religion before I spread it) and spread it through all their cities.
     
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    AI Civs' like to convert to the TAP Religion even when its Population is only even with the AI's current State Religion. Normally, an AI will not switch to a new Religion until it is 5 or more populous than their current State Religion. This generally applies only when the AI doesn't own the Holy City of its current State Religion. Also, this is more likely to happen with AI Leaders that have the Spiritual trait which incurs little penalty to switching and 2 Hpt per TAP Religion building is enticing to AI Spiritual Leaders.

    So, I would amend my previous statements regarding spreading TAP Religion to your friends. If your friends haven't founded their own State Religion and especially if they have the Spiritual trait, you may want to delay somewhat the spread of TAP Religion to them or start with a small isolated city and come back an spread to a larger city later (if necessary).

    Also, remember, if there is five turns or less to the RL DV, you can sometimes bribe an AI to convert to another non-TAP Religion, thus prevent them from converting to the TAP Religion for 5t.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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