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Challenge-XIX-09

Discussion in 'Hall of Fame Challenger Series' started by Noble Zarkon, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series - "Fall of the Inca II". Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but your best submission meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
    (*) Games must be played using the >> BUFFY MOD 3.19.003 << or >>>BUFFY MOD 3.19.004b<<<.
    (*) Games to be submitted via the >> Civ IV Hall of Fame Website <<
    (*) New players, please >> register << using your CFC forum name

    Settings:
    • Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Noble
    • Starting Era: Ancient
    • Map Size: Large
    • Speed: Epic
    • Map Type: Terra
    • Civ: Any
    • Opponents: Must include Egypt (Hatshepsut), England (Elizabeth), Inca (Huayna Capac), India (Gandhi), Mali (Mansa Musa), Persia (Darius), Rome (Julius Caesar), Russia (Catherine)
    • Version: 3.19.003 or 3.19.004b
    • Date: 10th September 2017 to 9th March 2018
    Must not play as Inca.
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
     
  2. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    This game came out of a couple of the suggestions from the discussion thread - the skill is in picking a Leader when all the best ones are gone! If you want, as it's Noble, you might want to choose someone with really useless traits like Protective if you are working towards your QM or EQM.

    Choose carefully if you are trying to beat the current Inca record of 1360AD though as that will be quite challenging!
     
  3. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    I see one leader choice, which to me appears to be by far the best of the available with these settings. But I won't tell you who it is just yet. ;)

    (Mostly because it would then be very embarrassing when someone else informs me why some other choice is much better. :blush:)
     
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  4. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Is it Ramesses?
    War Chariots would gobble up a lot on Noble difficulty.

    If going purely for civic traits, there are the choices of Roosevelt or Frederick.
    Augustus with Forges could also spam Praets and Settlers on Epic speed if the AI is just too slow chopping and expanding.
     
  5. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    I don't think you need war chariots on noble/epic. Regular chariots can also go a very long way (or why not just warriors). Only two of the listed opponents start with hunting, the rest can be very slow to archery. I wouldn't expect to need units as powerful as praets. Anything requiring IW seem like a waste, as you will get it quite late in trade. Selfteching IW for early rushing is probably not worth it. The AI is super slow to expand though, so maybe a better plan is to warrior rush a couple of AI immediately, then let the rest build some more cities before you go at them with axes, or something. No city razing option can be considered here, if you want to grab a couple of capitals immediately.

    I would value FIN much higher on noble than on higher levels. Upkeep costs are cheaper, reducing the value of ORG and there's no trade value in bulbed techs, reducing the value of PHI. FIN can be of great help when you have to tech everything yourself.
     
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Hmm..Willy?
    Nice double post with NZ ;)

    Was thinking of something spectacular for leader, but Willy just seems to have something useful in all categories here (agree with Fin being really good in this scenario).
    Cre for fast border pops in all captured cities, and his specials might not be super awesome but nothing seems useless.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
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  7. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    A couple of possibilities:-

    Ragnar
    - Trading Post for quicker exploration of the New World?

    WvO - Both the East Indiaman and the Dike helpful for Terra/Space?
     
  8. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Terra map means Joao gets a head start on the new world.
     
  9. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    I was thinking of Willy, yes. Fast border pops really help, especially if you warrior rush a couple of capitals. Cheap libraries are also awesome!

    After thinking some more about it, I can also see great value in Pacal. You won't capture as many workers and granaries as on higher levels, making that aspect of EXP more valuable. Extra health is alaways welcome in a space game, as is happiness from Ball Court.
     
  10. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Oh my, on Prince the civs starting with Hunting have undefended capitals and 1 Scout.
    On T6 with 1:hammers:, they can produce a Warrior.
    On T12 with no hammers working 3:food:, they can produce a Warrior.

    Everyone else starts with 1 Warrior on T0 hmm.

    Max opponents is 14 capitals.
    After that it really is self-teching everything.

    Since the AI have no bonuses over human, might as well conquer everything as fast as possible.
    Is it worth it to save Oracle for something much later beyond Civil Service?

    Beating the record would be Turn 275 Launch I think. (1275AD)

    Ya, faster Workers, Faster Settlers, can settle the New World with Optics, and the unique building adds +1:gold: to water tiles, but it is very expensive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    AI warriors start with the UNITAI_EXPLORE script and won't hang around to defend the capital either. All capitals are undefended early on. I forgot that this time window is much larger on epic speed. Up until T12, if they have a 3 food tile to work, like you said. This gives you plenty of time to grab a super early capital. No city razing it is. :) Oh, and this also means you can't start with hunting, ironically stripping Aggressive Ragnar of any capability to compete as an early rusher.

    Picking AI that don't start with hunting is quite important, because that delays their Archery date quite a lot, and less AI scouts means more huts for you to pop.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  12. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I Oracle Plastics on many of my lower level Time games :crazyeye:
     
  13. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    I tried a few openings with these settings. Didn't look for any good starts, just played the first 20-30 turns to know what to expect. Grabbing an uncontested capital is quite easy. Seems you bump into one about 50% of the time. On one attempt I was even able to reach two AI capitals by T11, but the other one worked a hammer and had the warrior already. Them having a warrior is not that bad, as long as city isn't on a hill. Attacking with 2 warriors has a rather good success rate, attacking with 3 I would regard as safe.

    To be competitive in this challenge, I think grabbing an unprotected capital is a must, and ideally you should have 3 cities before t20. I'm still not sure how to otherwise handle the opening. They won't build you any early workers, so at what point do I start my own? Warrior-warrior-worker is often good enough for 3 cities by t20. But could it be worth it to keep pumping out even more warriors to rush some more targets?

    The perfect start would be to pop a warrior from a hut on T0, then march your warriors in different directions to grab 2 free AI capitals.

    Also, medium, or even high sea level to maximize early capital grabbing? Or low sea level to maximize late game potential? How big empire do you even need on large/epic/noble to 1 turn the late game techs?
     
  14. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I would think low sea levels with max opponents would be best, no?
     
  15. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    You can't get a warrior from a hut before t10.
     
  16. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    I'm not convinced low sea level is best. On a standard size lakes map there's enough space to build an empire that 1 turns the later eras on immortal/normal speed. Tech costs on Large/Epic/Noble appear to be 29.23% higher than Standard/Normal/Immortal. A Medium sea level terra map can already have twice as much land as the standard sized lakes map. In addition, on the lakes map most of your cities will be landlocked, meaning they take up more land tiles than the coastal and island cities on a terra map. So the medium sea level large terra map should allow more than twice the amount of cities, while tech costs only are 29% higher. Why would I need more land than that? On the other hand, with a higher sea level you are off to a faster start as the AI will be closer to you. Max opponents is a given in any case.

    Maybe there is some flaw in my logic here. I'm not that experienced with space games, especially on larger maps and slower speeds. Might be missing something...

    Ah, that explains why it never happened. So, the perfect start would still be to pop a warrior on t0, but that just won't happen. :sad:
     
  17. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    That's what I would do, hopefully working a 3 hammer tile, let the captured capitals produce your workers.
     
  18. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I had a quick run through with Pacal last night. Settled on Stone and worked a wooded plains hill for 4 turn warriors. Researched Hunting -> BW and changed to Holkans when finished. At t50 I had 5 cities and another 2/3 were going to fall in the next few turns. I stopped at that point as there was no commerce at the start which was becoming a problem lol. Very promising so I will run Mapfinder tonight I think!
     
  19. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    Holkans could be quite interesting, yes. Warriors are quite effective until around t35-t40, then the AI tend to get their second warriors out, which makes it tougher. I've been thinking that it would be great to have chariots, but hooking up horse takes forever when the first workers come so late.

    I had a great game where I grabbed two free capitals by t11, two more by t30, then my attack with 3 warriors (1 of them CR1) against 1 warrior in Mansa's non-hill capital failed and a couple of turns later his wandering warrior grabbed one of my undefended cities. :mad:

    Edit: very next attempt, t37 - 6 cities and 2 captured workers. My capital sucks, but maybe this game could still be a keeper.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  20. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I think you absolutely need financial to be competitive, which leaves you Expansionist, Creative, Imperialistic, Charismatic, Aggressive and Protective. You definitely want a warrior to take AI caps, so Ragnar is twice out (aggressive is not a good 2nd trait for space) Protective is useless so Wang is out, even with the University 10% bonus to research. Charismatic is underrated and the numidian is likely to be useful (you will have a fair amount of war and at least some AI will get to spears), but the UB is expensive and not strong and having no cheap buildings is a problems. Imp is useful (out expanding the AI is good and it's always fun and useful to get great leaders). Stock Exchange is nice, but not game breaking and the Red coat comes late. Creative is great immediately, in the short term for cheap libs and in the long term (cheap theaters for Globe, cheap colloseums for... reasons?) The UU is OK, not great on a terra map, the UB is quite useful. Expansionist is great immediately (cheap workers and granaries, which go into every city) and in the long term (+2 health helps in the industrial era), the holkan isn't great but it is resourceless and the ball court is nice for the later cities.

    Long winded way of saying either William or Pacal will be good.

    You definitely need a big empire to 1 turn modern techs on epic/large. I'd go low sea levels, myself.

    one interesting thing - I've seen starts (sometimes the AI) that have 5 or 6 gems in them)
     

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