Challenge-XV-08

[Seraiel]

I'm currently wondering, if a 100% peaceful REX-game could beat my my 1050 AD victory. In the last game, I produced 12 Elephants, 2 HAs and 10 Catapults, which is almost equal to 9 cities. I already founded 4 cities, so if I had neglected all military and would have only REXed, I would have had the resources for 13-15 cities (don't forget that I also build 2 Barracks and 1 Stable) .
Of course this would need a map, where one can somehow block the land or where the AIs started very far away, but those maps do exist, and at least it's better than to give x's games in a row just because of lacking the necessary amount of luck in war.

[EDIT]

Forgot, that in a peaceful REX-game I'd also need Workers, but 8 cities should still be possible without a problem. That'd be as many as in my 1050 AD game.

 

[shulec]

Time to beat is 1050 AD.

Fabulously impressive!

 

[shulec]

I'm currently wondering, if a 100% peaceful REX-game could beat my my 1050 AD victory. In the last game, I produced 12 Elephants, 2 HAs and 10 Catapults, which is almost equal to 9 cities. I already founded 4 cities, so if I had neglected all military and would have only REXed, I would have had the resources for 13-15 cities (don't forget that I also build 2 Barracks and 1 Stable) .
Of course this would need a map, where one can somehow block the land or where the AIs started very far away, but those maps do exist, and at least it's better than to give x's games in a row just because of lacking the necessary amount of luck in war.

[EDIT]

Forgot, that in a peaceful REX-game I'd also need Workers, but 8 cities should still be possible without a problem. That'd be as many as in my 1050 AD game.

With war gained cities, you also acquire instant population in cities, previously improved lands, capture gold, and often workers. So...no... I don't thinke a rex can touch a war driven victory.

 

[Seraiel]

With war gained cities, you also acquire instant population in cities, previously improved lands, capture gold, and often workers. So...no... I don't thinke a rex can touch a war driven victory.

I agree with you shulec, but I was questioning my previous game in specific. In that game, I only had 8 cities after the war, 2 without Food and low pop. Yes, of course, the russian capital was awesome, but I built really very many units to conquer them, as I thought I could conquer a 2nd Civ soon after. I even built like 10 Trebs for conquering the 2nd Civ, so really a lot resources wasted and conquest started very late, like 500 AD.

I think that it's very much possible to beat that 1050 AD date with only peaceful REX. 8 cities until 500 BC is definately possible, I know so from a 2nd game, and cities of course would also have the time to grow, like if a city was settled at 2000 BC, it'd probably be at least somehow compareable to an AIs city if compared at 500 BC. The self-founded city even has some advantages like that it has a Library and a garantueed Granary!

Of course, a good war-game will beat peaceful REX, but war somehow seems very difficult for me atm.. All my HA-rushes are failing, even if I have 50% chances on attack, I lose 5/5 units, and my attack-dates are usually way too late, like 1500-1000 BC for a HA-rush and 500 BC for Elepult. I don't know, what I can do against this, as from my perspective I'm doing everything alright. I found 2 (HA) or 3 (Elepult) cities, I build a Barracks and Stable only in the capital, cannot be wrong to also build a Library if it only costs half, I tech AH -> Writing -> Alpha (if none AI has writing yet) or Maths (if an AI has Writing) and then HBR.

Maybe someone can show me the error in my ways.

 

[Seraiel]

Lol. Just tried a BFC-HA-rush with 1 city. It was absolutely horrible, maybe had 7 HAs at 1300 BC. That was btw. also the time when my war-target Asoka reached Longbows, after he had already bulbed Philosophy and was first to CoL too.

Order of Research this time was btw. to research HBR before Maths and I didn't research Alpha because Frederick and De Gaulle got it early, so there was absolutely no possibility to have more HAs this time, meaning: HA-rush from 1 city sucks even more than HA-rush from 2 or 3 cities.

 

[Seraiel]

This will interest elitetroops:

After having failed at least 10 games where I went for a rush, I set up a map with completely peaceful opponents (Asoka, Lizzy, Gandhi, Frederick, Mansa and Hammurabi) and I set the shoreline to "natural" . What I'm hoping for is a map where I can block of a lot of land and then peacefully REX to 8+ cities.

I think this is definately faster than trying the OOC setup even with having to whip so many Settlers. The thinking behind that is, that in the beginning where OOC is strong, one maybe can simply keep up by trading with the AIs. What matters a lot though is the Research that's made at the end, so past Liberalism. Techs like Physics, Electricity and Radio are huge and sometimes take about 30T with OOC and I think one loses very much time there, even with bulbing.

What I experienced in my 1050 AD game was, that the research in the end excelled OOC by quite a bit, I remember having had something like 700 / turn while OOC rarely exceeds 400 / turn. Not sure if my assumptions are right, but I think a date below 1000 AD should be possible like this.

 

[elitetroops]

Thanks, I was also considering something like that. Though I might try to beat down one or two neighbors after all. We'll see... I did one quick try just to get a feel for how it plays, it's been a while since I tried Deity. Got boxed in immediately. By immediately, I mean immediately... They settled right at my border in all directions... Lesson learned, don't use maximum opponents with medium sealevel. I'll probably go with low sealevel and minimum opponents next, like you do.

 

[Falabello]

@Seraiel

After watching your video I did some attempts (following your steps ).

In one of them I thought The Parthenon would be a good idea, but I was completely wrong: after two G Artists (at that point the game was already dead) I continued just for curiosity. Result: 4 Great Artists ... I stoped after that!

In the best game things was going well till Astro: I lost it by 1 turn ! End of this game ...
(I built The Pyramids and was #1 to Alpha). Maybe I have to wait more time to find a better location. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel and I'll play it again!

One question: it seems to me that The Great Library can help so much! What do you tell me about that?

 

[Seraiel]

One question: it seems to me that The Great Library can help so much! What do you tell me about that?

Great Library is a distraction from the tech-path and it delays the NE. My experience with OOC-Diplo-games is usually that the GL obsoletes to fast to be of great use. Maybe with Marble one can think about it, but there are usually also enough other useful things to build, so I wouldn't make my game dependent on it, nor would I research Aesthetics and Literature myself anymore.

The key-points to a good Diplo-game are beelining Mass-Media basically from the beginning onwards, so via CoL, CS, Paper and the only thing which would make me switch away from that path would be, that getting Metalcasting is also important because a GE just saves so many turns when rushing the UN, and because Forges are actually really great buildings, especially in a builder-game like Diplo where max-research matters.

Regarding GAs btw.: You don't have to throw away a game if you get GAs. Ofc, getting GSs is a lot more important, but all GAs can be used on Radio in the end, so they're not completely useless.

 

[Falabello]

so I wouldn't make my game dependent on it, nor would I research Aesthetics and Literature myself anymore.

The key-points to a good Diplo-game are beelining Mass-Media basically from the beginning onwards, so via CoL, CS, Paper

I played it another time, with two farms and two gold mines (after almost giving up regenerate maps). The results were better than others, but the first thing was research Aesthetics and no one trade for Code of Laws. After Lit, I have to get it by myself. In your video you said that Lib Astro is a trick (if I understood this word??). But I need more experience in that point. I was #1 in Education. Initiated Lib and had one GScientist to bulb it, but needed Compass. Only Asoka (biggest) had it, with Machinery. If I traded Edu for these two techs, still needed Optics. So, what to do??? There's one thing I don't understand. How do I prepare the game to my GScientist bulb Lib? In this example I chose research Compass (lefting 12 turns to end Lib). After that the only possibility for my Scientist was Printint Press??? I lost Astro again to Mansa...

But I liked this idea of forgetting Aesthetic and Literature. I'll try it again beelining Mass-Media... This way I'll research Code of Laws by myself before others (no one traded it to me for Aesthetic in all my attempts...). But to achieve some dates like yours (video) I think is necessary three farms (and you had two pigs). But my numbers are getting better. I would have Lib Astro (in my example) in around 50AD!

Regarding GAs btw.: You don't have to throw away a game if you get GAs. Ofc, getting GSs is a lot more important, but all GAs can be used on Radio in the end, so they're not completely useless.

I didn't think that. Maybe I can rethink Parthenon...

 

[Falabello]

Another thing: with Stone is possible build Pyra and be #1 to have Alpha. I'll try this possibility again, lefting by side Aesthetic and Literature. If maps generate a medium location, but with stone, surely I'll make an attempt ...

 

[Seraiel]

The only trick I remember at Lib -> Astro is to not trade for Gunpowder, otherwise the Electricity-bulb gets screwed.

Same with bulbing Lib, you must not trade for Machinery, then the GS cannot bulb PP -> will choose Lib as bulb target.

Regarding Compass and Optics: I always research those once I am 1T before finishing Liberalism. Gives the AIs more chance to tech them so I can get them through trade and delays Machinery.

What I don't understand is what you mean with "you need 3 Farms" , you need 0 Farms in a Diplo-game unless you got Corn, Wheat or Rice, all tiles should be cottaged or should remain forrested to give and to chop in the UN in the end.

Regarding Stone & Mids: I played the game on Youtube on a Oasis map I think, that one doesn't have Stone where the human player starts, actually I try to get Stone + Mids in all of my Diplo games, also because it makes getting a GE so much simpler and the additional Happy-cap and Research are also nice.

You have to try to not divert yourself to too many wonders though, Mids are ok, but wonders cost many resources. You want a Library, a Forge, the NE, the Globe, a University, Oxford and possibly multiple Monestaries in the city while not whipping it. All that stuff takes a lot time to be build, so don't prioritize Wonders with little benefit, while normal stuff would give you more.

 

[Falabello]

I need learn more about these bulb targets, but now I have a different way to follow.

About farms, I expressed myself badly. I wanted to say exactly Corn, Rice or Wheat (if possible with 6 or 5 food). Or pastures.

What do you think be the minimum of resources to win (regardless date, just win) this Diplo game? With a 6 food Corn (it's easy to appear), another poor resource, just one luxury resource, Stone to Pyramids, green tiles to Cottages, and a couple of mines. Plus forests and river to .

This location appears with more facility, even so, with several regenerates.

My question has the objective that, if it's possible to win (at Deity) with these minimum resources, I can try to do it too. This will give me experience to deal with hard situations... And also, I can try several attempts playing more times. To better locations (with two luxury, two or three good Corns or Pigs, plus Stone...), wow, you will have to have a giant patience (and a couple of hours only to prepare the game)!

 

[Seraiel]

You for sure can win with that start. Usually, I play everything from 2 Food 1 Gold upwards. Winning is probably even possible with less than that.

What's important, is, that the capital has about 12-15 workable tiles, because OOC favours large Buro capitals, so I'd count the special-resources and the grasslands to see if a start is playable or not.

 

[Falabello]

@ Seraiel ==>

Thank you very much ! You have an impressive patience (and Deity experience ) to help other players. Keep it up !

 

[Thlypsis]

I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around deity. This was second submission at that level!

The UN never voted how I expected it to - until the end, of course. I'm weighing in at 1655 AD and moving on to other challenge games. Thanks to everyone in this thread for the advice!

 

[lymond]

good game, Thlypsis!

 

[Falabello]

@ Seraiel ==>

Wow! It was very close !!!

My experience in this Deity OCC game:
#1 step: a couple of games to be the first to Lib Astro.
#2 step: after gaining experience to Liberalism, be the first to get Physics.
#3 step: the hard way to Radio.
#4 step: Mass Media and United Nations before AIs.
#5 step: Prepare the election (here my fault). Now I need to learn when to change Civics... ...

There are two prints of the City. This was possible by watching your video . I'll watch the final again to see how you prepared the Diplomacy. I'm very satisfied with this result , although frustrated by not winning ...

 

[Seraiel]

Your errors probably were, that you didn't bribe Asoka out of Universal Suffrage / that you switched to Universal Suffrage too late, and that either you or Mansa didn't run Free Market. The last, you could also have achieved via giving him a tech. Mansa often switches to State Property or even Enviromentalism, but then one must pursuade him to switch back, because that are +5 on diplo alone.

If Asoka wouldn't have run Universal Suffrage, Fred would have liked you more, and with Mansa and you running Free Market, you'd also have achieved +12 or +13.

It's also necessary to switch to the right civics in time, usually the point is somewhere when researching Electricity, just after the last usable GS got born. No further Specialists = Universal Suffrage.

Also: You already had very good diplo with Hammurabi, you should have switched to Free Speech to also get Washington's votes.

 

[Falabello]

My main concern was Physics, Radio, Mass Media and UN before AIs. Now that I got all of them, I can pay more attention in Civics. I thought Asoka would vote for me because we had +12, but don't know how much more is needed ? About Mansa I was running Free Market, but forgot to see if he was too ... I had +18 with Hammu (because Bureacracy and Hindu), but when I change to Free Religion and Free Speach the Diplo down a lot. So I return to Bureacracy because Hammu had more votes than Washington.

But now is to give experience in Diplo bonus (I confess that only now I'm beginning to understand it ). For a player that never won at Deity (just a few games at Emperor and Immortal) I think I did a good job till now ...