Challenge-XV-09

[lymond]

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
(*) Games must be played using the >> BUFFY MOD 3.19.003 <<
(*) Games to be submitted via the >> Civ IV Hall of Fame Website <<
(*) New players, please >> register << using your CFC forum name​

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Noble
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Small
• Speed: Normal
• Map Type: Great Plains
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: Persia (Cyrus)
• Opponents: Must include England (Churchill), Holy Roman Empire (Charlemange), Japan (Tokugawa), Korea (Wang Kon), Native America (Sitting Bull), Sumeria (Gilgamesh)
• Version: 3.19.003 or 3.19.003s
• Date: 15th December 2014 to 15th May 2015

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[Falabello]

@lymond

I realized that you improve your date! I think I can do the same with mine, and this game is fast, but I thought it was just one submission per game. Can I submit several games in the same game of the Challenge, if I improve the date? Is it valid fot the same game of Gauntlet?

Another question: will the previous game do part of the HOF tables?

 

[lymond]

You can submit as many entries as you wish for any HOF game, as long as you use a different map each time.

I always like these fast conquest games. Lots of luck involved, although certainly skill and knowledge of how to best get a fast start. The all Protective opponents adds an interesting twist as - as I've certainly found - it leads to many unlucky losses.

I'm finding location helps some. Ofc, you must have horses in BFC to be competitive in this game, but with AH the first tech anyway, you quickly find out if a map is a dud. I actually prefer not using MF with Great Plains map as it is such a bizarre map. Pretty easy to quickly roll up several possible maps on your own, but being able to move the scout and/or settler first can reveal a lot.

(Interestingly, I could have sworn that Horses do not appear on the East side of Great Plains maps. I'm wondering if the "Small" size effects the script, as I've found horses in the East several times and have started saving off East side rolls)

Another question: will the previous game do part of the HOF tables?

Not sure if I fully understand your question. All entries to the Challenge are recorded to the HOF tables. Only the best entry is used for the Challenge itself.

 

[Falabello]

Hey, sorry for not answering before , I've been out for Christmas !

Well, I think I understood: my last game was the Challenge's game 9. Now I choose another HOF game (I'll choose from the Challenge - each one has different maps). After I submitted it, I can return to the game 9, play it to a better date and submit !

This time I have the plan to play all the games from Challenge - except Deity (but I'll try it ...) Also, is the first time that I participate on Challenge, and it's been very cool.

About where horses usually appear is out of my experience (it's another example that I can learn very much here !). Thanks for the tips!

BTW, I'll be out again for the New Year! After the holiday I'll return to the Challenge (and WOTM) !!!

 

[zbgayumn]

About where horses usually appear is out of my experience (it's another example that I can learn very much here !). Thanks for the tips!

Horses generally appear in the middle part of the Great Plains map. That means if you see grass and forest you're too far east and if you see mountains you're too far west.

It doesn't look like I necessarily need to tell you that, though, as you've managed a faster conquest than I did.

@lymond and others - I pretty much built Immortals and only Immortals from about T20 on. Is that the basic approach that you took?

Immortals vs. Protective Archers turns out to be fairly similar to regular Chariots vs. regular Archers. Every time I've done a chariot rush, I have a hard time coping with the high loss rate (at least one attacker per defender). Any thoughts on that?

 

[Falabello]

Horses generally appear in the middle part of the Great Plains map. That means if you see grass and forest you're too far east and if you see mountains you're too far west.

Thanks for the tip. I always forget to remember how maps are configured !

@lymond and others - I pretty much built Immortals and only Immortals from about T20 on. Is that the basic approach that you took?

Exactly. You will finish this game with Immortals. Build the first and never stop. The real difference is that you will face Warriors, not Archers. Depending how fast you are, some AIs will be defending by one or two Warriors. In the end, Archers will appear, but the number per city is very low.

Here's one of my attempts:
- 1 Worker, 1 Warrior and 24 Immortals (my buildings).
- 6 Warriors, 2 Dog Soldiers, 1 Spear and 14 Archers (AI's defenders)

This attempt ended in 950 BC. Improve this date and decrease the number of Archers. If I win the other games of this Challenge, I'll try this one again. It's very fast !

 

[neilmeister]

This game was truly an exercise in frustration.

I rolled 500 maps for this, and simply started them in order of the most cows. Move to the Stone or a PH and hope!
Horses...where are you? Usually nowhere to be seen or 1 tile outside the BFC...aaarrgh!

When I did get horses, I would lose the first 2 Immortals to cities defended by 2 warriors.

The worst was the last AI (damn burger king) in the mountains had 4 archers on a hill behind a river and I lost 11 Immortals

I finally managed to submit a game, t62. Even though it only took half an hour, I spent almost 3 full days on this damn challenge. I am done with this one!

This game requires that the AI on the left side of the map are not too buried behind forests/mountains and are not creative/founders of religion so it doesn't take 3-4 turns to get into position to attack. They would always whip a pile of archers.

 

[Falabello]

Hey Neil, here it is !

I rolled 500 maps for this, and simply started them in order of the most cows. Move to the Stone or a PH and hope!
Horses...where are you? Usually nowhere to be seen or 1 tile outside the BFC...aaarrgh!

I'll need one more attempt... or no !!!

 

[neilmeister]

I am having flashbacks.... arggh.

That screenshot looks like so many of my attempts!

 

[lymond]

Yep, I had many of those as well. Oftentimes, I move to a good tile to settle on and the horses would have been in the BFC.

 

[neilmeister]

Oh my, well done Falabello!

You are safe from me, as I won't be replaying this nightmare anytime soon.

 

[Falabello]

Oh my, well done Falabello!

You are safe from me, as I won't be replaying this nightmare anytime soon.

It's good to know that ! Maybe Pollina and others had the same nighmare with this game !

 

[elitetroops]

I also have to say that this is one ANNOYING game!!

I had the mother of all awesome starts, settle on stone, 3 cows and 3 horses (connected by river), with awesome land layout, Church 4 tiles away for very fast worker steal and no AI was out in the far corners. Took out 3 opponents pre-archery and was on my way towards an easy 1600BC win, until I lost 4 immortals to a single archer that wasn't even on a hill. This was of course against the AI the furthest away and sending another army there cost a lot. Eventually I was to take out the last city 1480BC, but lost 5 immortals to one archer on a hill. Rage quit.

Next awesome start had wheat for fast growth, 4 cows, horses and even found copper for 22 base hammmers at pop 6. Once again against the AI the furthest away I lost 7 immortals vs one fortified archer+one whipped archer.

How big stacks should I be working with? It seems there is no way to have stacks of 8 or more immortals when attacking every hill city with archers and make it anywhere close to t61. Do I just have to rely on rng luck for the battles as well?

 

[elitetroops]

Meh, I give up. Happy to at least submit something. But top 3 is safe. For now.

This time I went in overprepared in most cases. For three AI I ended up using only half of the immortals I had in place.

Would have finished 2 turns earlier, but had to delay the last attack, as the same turn I was about to attack Church, a Sword appeared in his capital... Maybe I should have noticed that iron mine right next to my stack..

Btw. didn't know chariots and immortals get 100% attack vs Dog Soldiers as well. At first I was like when he had a dogsoldier out before t25, but then I was totally when I noticed I had 95% odds against it fortified in a hill city.

 

[lymond]

Yep, Dogs count as axeman and they are obviously dog chow for chariots

Granted, my date doesn't make me an expert - and like others - I have a poor sampling due to finding the right starts. I need to play this one more. However, I try to send at least 1 IMM out to each AI to choke and keep tabs on metals. The key though is getting that first close AI city asap to get it online.

Yep, Protective really makes this more of a challenge - relatively speaking. The odds of very bad luck are just so high and can make the difference of many turns if an attack fails badly. Oftentimes, I'll get great luck at some point early with some good low odd wins, then fail miserably on a later attack that ruins the whole things. Ofc, I think culture starts to factor later as caps get their second and sometimes 3rd border pops.

Without Protective, dates would easily precede the 2000BC mark. Question is if someone can hit 2000BC mark in this game...hmmmm...now that is a challenge. We're still quite far off that date with the results so far.

ha...this is a bahstahd of a game, but I think it quite fun too.

 

[elitetroops]

Interesting. I've been doing this with one city. I've been thinking that if I can find an AI with first ring horse, then I keep the city, otherwise it would take too long to get it online. And my workers are busy all the time with other stuff anyway. Maybe I should give it another try with 2 cities...

I don't think choking the AI is a good idea. That'll just make them build more archers. Better to use whatever you got to take out AI as fast as possible. So far I haven't seen a spear in any of my games. That sword was the first metal unit I ever saw.

 

[neilmeister]

Indeed, choking the AI is not worth doing. Getting the first conquered online producing Immortals is very important (captured workers and/or rivers help!!!), you do not have time to build 2 cities yourself.

You need luck, but you also need to be able to judge when you have already sent enough Immortals in one direction, but again, this comes down to luck as you discovered.... 4 Immortals should eat a single archer for breakfast.

My stacks were 2 Immortals for the first AI, 3 for the next, then 5, then 2 different stacks of 3-4 each.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, I should have been clear that I would not keep a city if it's crap, even if it is the first one. With GP map, there are certainly AI caps that can be complete bombs. If it does have some production though and can be connected quickly I might keep it.

(yeah, definitely don't build a settler..I think for most that is obvious)

Spoiler :

4 Immortals should eat a single archer for breakfast.

You would think so, but it does happen. Freakin' most infuriating thing is when you don't scratch these protective bahstahds. I have lost 4 to 1. A different turn/rng, and you win that fight with 1 guy.

Yeah, and I should also clarify the choking thing. It's more to pillage/see metals, steal workers, and kill settlers...then ceasefire. Key is ceasefiring asap. You kill settlers, then less cities to take.

I don't take writing either..well, at least not towards the end..so no OBs.

Interested if yall use slavery here. I do sometimes, sometimes not depending on the city. Super cow cities can get to the point of 1 to 2 turn Imm. In some cases I have a bit more food>hammers so I use it. I hate that 1 turn anarchy in some of these cities though in this quick type of game. But not using it enough may be why my attempt was slower. Maybe at least getting those first few out faster is worth it.

 

[elitetroops]

Getting the first conquered online producing Immortals is very important

Thanks for the tip, now enjoy your third place!

I'd say mapfinder is completely useless for this. I started NW at the edge of the arctic forest. Spent 3 turns walking my settler SE, then settled on a PH three tiles from SB. City was mediocre, only 2 cows and a couple of grass hills before I popped horses. Actually, city was very bad.. Both cows were PH cows, no food except floodplains. But instead I got Cahokia online very fast, it had a cow of it own and I popped a copper on one of the shared grass hills. The main benefit of this move was that there now wasn't any AI at all in the western forest, as that was my starting location. The rest of the AI were at comfortable distance.

Regarding slavery, I had a magnificent plan. The idea was to revolt to slavery for the last few immortals. Basically choose a turn where both cities are 2 turns from completing an immortal, revolt and whip them both next turn. Cold 2 pop whip if that's the only option. Then just keep whipping to make sure I get one every turn until I can't make anymore. Unfortunately, I screwed it up and revolted to slavery way too late. The whipped immortals never saw battle and the only effect of this move was reducing my final score..

Once again I went in overpowered to the final 2 battles. Could have cut off a turn or 2 if I just had taken the risk and went in with fewer immortals. Toku is a bit of a problem when you can't know at all what he has or if he is on a hill or not, if the capital is surrounded by forest.

Uh, just realized huts are allowed for this... I guess they could come in handy for more scouts and maps. Must turn them on if I ever come back to this.

 

[lymond]

Yep, never use MF for maps like GP. You can roll some absolutely ridiculously bad starts with GP...like no resources at all in BFC. Sure you've seen it. however, often a great city is a tile or two away. Almost always have to move before settling. Just keep rolling for cows and move the scout and settler to if needed.

That's an interesting idea to..um..basically scout with the settler and settle in their face. The lost turns probably are made up by the proximity and fast 2nd city. Plus, you don't lose those early beakers. I'll have to try that. Get ready to go down, Elite!