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Chance to Retreat?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Sirp, Apr 25, 2003.

  1. Lenvik

    Lenvik Pathological lurker

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    The latter. It has used its only chance.
     
  2. BomberEscort

    BomberEscort Don't be alarmed; this is a kindness Supporter

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    They way I understand how it works is this:

    The 'retreat calculation' takes place after the retreating unit which is at 2hp loses the next round. After this happens, a retreat calculation is made. If successful, the unit is reduced to 1hp and retreats (if a position is available to retreat to). If unsuccessful, the unit is reduce to 1hp and the battle continues. Since the 'retreat calculation' takes place between the 2hp-1hp boundary, and since 1hp units will never retreat (nor will 3 or 4). The unit only gets one chance to retreat.

    In your example above, the unit will never retreat since it has already crossed the 2hp-1hp boundary where the calculation is made... At 1hp the RNG will not say no or yes anymore. it makes that descision in the transition from 2hp to 1hp...
     
  3. Krayzeenbk

    Krayzeenbk Rocket Constructor

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    I believe that is accurate....
     
  4. Conditional Zenith

    Conditional Zenith Chieftain

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    After the conflicting advice I have recieved, I tested for myself and came to the same conlusions, it only tries once.

    However, during this testing, I had a strange result. I edited "Conscript" in the rules so that it had a retreat bonus of 100. I then had a conscript horseman attack a conscript infantry. The horseman lost a HP but did not retreat. It subsequently was killed. Can anyone explain this?
     
  5. Krayzeenbk

    Krayzeenbk Rocket Constructor

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    Two possibilities immediately come to mind. Either other bonuses apply, or the conscript bonus is not a percentage.
     
  6. Conditional Zenith

    Conditional Zenith Chieftain

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    I did think about that, but I should point out that it would not let me enter numbers greater than 100 or less than 0.
     
  7. BomberEscort

    BomberEscort Don't be alarmed; this is a kindness Supporter

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    This is very odd!?!

    I will do testing on this... I'm sure this (used to) works, because in Vanilla Civ III wasn't the retreat of all fast-movers v. slow-movers always 100% and they found this to be unbalancing?
     
  8. BomberEscort

    BomberEscort Don't be alarmed; this is a kindness Supporter

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    I ran some calculations through my Civ III Calculator... (based on Theory #1 below)

    =======================================
    Conscript Horseman (2.1.2 2hp) v.
    Conscript Infantry (6.10.1 2hp)

    Horseman (Retreat @ 33%)
    Win: 5.050523%
    Loss: 93.627674%
    Draw: 1.321802%

    Horseman (Retreat @ 100%)
    Win: 2.366864%
    Loss: 93.627674%
    Draw: 4.005462%
    =======================================

    It seems that the 'retreat percentage' is not the percentage of battles a unit will retreat from. But a multiplier of the chance a unit will have 1 hp left * the retreat percentage. So, in the example above (retreat @ 33%)... The percentage of battles that the Horseman will 'win' (technically draw) with 1hp remaining is 4.005%. You then take the multiplier times this number to get the overall chance of retreat. Sounds strange, I know...

    I have two theories...
    Once a unit crosses the 2hp-1hp boundary one of two things will happen...
    1. Retreat is calculated as above in the example, if so retreat plays a very small factor as compared to the pre-Civ III v1.17b patch.
    2. After the unit reaches the 2hp-1hp boundary a calculation is made separately for retreat (e.g. 33% for conscript) and the unit has that chance to retreat from the battle. The post above by Conditional Zenith seems to discredit this option. This was the way it was done before the Civ III v1.17b patch but may have been discontinued for balancing. It is possible that Conditional Zenith had an error during testing and this is indeed the correct option...
      [/list=1]

      I ran some calculations through my Civ III Calculator... (based on Theory #2 above)

      =======================================
      Conscript Horseman (2.1.2 2hp) v.
      Conscript Infantry (6.10.1 2hp)

      Horseman (Retreat @ 33%)
      Win: 6.372326%
      Loss: 62.730542%
      Draw: 30.897132%

      Horseman (Retreat @ 100%)
      Win: 6.372326%
      Loss: 0.000000%
      Draw: 93.627674%
      =======================================

      As you can see, a very large difference between outcomes so testing should be fairly easy... assuming I haven't missed anything.

      I will test this extensively and post in a few days with the results...
     
  9. Krayzeenbk

    Krayzeenbk Rocket Constructor

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    I believe so, but this was addressed in a vanilla patch (ca. 1.16).
     
  10. BomberEscort

    BomberEscort Don't be alarmed; this is a kindness Supporter

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    Upon reading the Civ III v1.17b patch infomation I am under the assumption that Theory #2 above is correct...

    I will test this tonight...
     
  11. CanucklePuck

    CanucklePuck Chieftain

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    that only for the french armies

    Moderator Action: Check out the forum rules, CanucklePuck. We don't appreciate *any* nation-bashing! Consider yourself warned. --Padma
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  12. Krayzeenbk

    Krayzeenbk Rocket Constructor

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    Two posts, two moderator warnings - that's pretty serious ;)
     
  13. Conditional Zenith

    Conditional Zenith Chieftain

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    I hope I had an error. I believed that theory #2 was correct and was completely surprised when the horseman didn't retreat. I was using PTW 1.27f at the time. I'll try and reproduce my strange result.
     
  14. Conditional Zenith

    Conditional Zenith Chieftain

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    I don't know what happened the first time, but I could not reproduce the result.
     
  15. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    CZ, you may be interested in this follow up
    thread.

    (Since BE was *too shy* to pick up anarres good advice to "post a link in the other thread"...:))
     
  16. anarres

    anarres anarchist revolutionary

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    CellarDweller22 said:
    BomberEscort replied:
    I then said:
    BomberEscort then said:
    Wow.....

    now my reply to BomberEscort:

    You can have a 2HP tank attack a city and have the arty drop it's HP from 2 to 1. It then has passed the 'retreat calculation' point. The decision to retreat or not has been made during it's bombardment by arty.

    So, I have never seen a fast unit on 2HP attack a city with arty, lose a HP and cross the magical 2HP/1HP boundary, then retreat before it attacks the city (we all know if it attacks on 1HP it has a 0% chance of retreat).

    Has anyone else seen a unit made to retreat with arty?
     
  17. BomberEscort

    BomberEscort Don't be alarmed; this is a kindness Supporter

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    Assuming an offensive bombardment by the arty, that reduces the tank from 2 hp to 1 hp. I don't think it will retreat because I don't think bombarding activates the 'retreat' subroutine. AFAIK, bombarding will not cause a unit to retreat (that is to say I have never seen it happen)...

    But I think he was talking about defensive bombarding... I don't think he was saying that his tanks were 2hp to start (because he said 'knocked down 1 hp' not 'knocked down to 1 hp'), but I could be wrong. Maybe CellarDweller22 will come here and clarify...

    But, to answer your question. I have never seen a unit make a retreat with artillery functioning in a defensive or offensive capacity.
     
  18. BomberEscort

    BomberEscort Don't be alarmed; this is a kindness Supporter

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    If artillery bombardment causes a fast unit to reach 1 hp, I don't believe it has the ability to retreat, but I know that this does effect the future ability of that fast-unit to retreat (assuming he doesn't heal)... This calls for another test... Damn, you anarres ;)...
     

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