Chances for AI's to pop a "good" hut?

[Bleys]

I recall we had a thread a while back that discussed how hut's probability worked with regard to level of difficulty and what pop's them. You cannot get Settlers or Workers starting with Noble, and the chances of a tech go down quite a bit as you move through Prince, Monarch, Emperor and on up.

My question, and it may be difficult to answer, (DanF, I have mentioned you are my hero, right? ) is do the AIs have the same chances on huts as the player, especially at high levels.

I know from my work on WorldBuilder files that all the AIs are assigned "HANDICAP_NOBLE", which is part of their bonus, but does that translate to "easier to get Techs from Huts"?

I ask because recently, we have seen a number of the new Cookbook idea games, and those games are played without Huts, and for good reason, luck plays too large a role in a start with them on. I just popped 3 huts for 3 techs on Emperor with Darius. I restarted because its ridiculous to get Mining, Sailing (coastal start, teched Fishing first), and AH before I even finish my first Worker.

So my point, I suppose, is that if huts are popped for AIs according to "Noble level odds", then having them turned on may be an ADVANTAGE for the AIs. We all know that as you climb in levels, it gets harder and harder to find many huts outside your immediate area because the AIs get so many extra exploring units, so does this factor into difficulty?

What do you guys think? Especially those of you who regularly play Emp+ levels, do you even notice that a particular AI has WAY WAY more techs than should be possible, so you know he got them from huts?

 

[Rubbaduck]

My little hunch would be that the "HANDICAP_NOBLE" means they aren't getting workers or settlers(of course this is a guess based on basically nothing).

I myself often see the AI having really bad hut luck(popping barbs, or maps[no score change or visible effect]), but I don't think I see enough hutpops from the AI to judge...

 

[MrCynical]

I think the AI do use the Noble level odds. Certainly I've never seen them get an extra worker or settler, which would be consistent with that.

 

[r_rolo1]

No, handicap_noble means that they are playing noble in all that it isn't determined by the human handicap ( like extra starting techs or extra units ). This means that they have noble maintenance, noble WFYBTA ..... and , among others, noble goody hut luck.

OFC that this means that the AI is more able of extracting techs from the huts it pops and that is certainly multiplied by the fact that AI have much more units than the human @ start. If this was intended .... I don't know.

@ Bleys

Not all of the diference between AI can be atribued to the hut luck, given the nature of the start tech bonuses that AI receive. In emperor+ diferent AI get diferent overall bonuses, given that the bonus techs are "hardcoded" on the handicap XML file. For a example, in Immortal AI receive Hunting, Wheel and Archery for free, regardless if the AI has them or not as starting techs. If a AI has Hunting and wheel as native starting techs, it will only receive Archery..... but if the AI has Agri and Mining ( for sakes example..... better say any tech except Hunting and wheel ) it will have Agri, Mining, wheel, Hunting and archery in the beginning of the game. As you can imagine, this acoounts for much of some AI ascendent over other AI in high levels ( who never had the luck of popping 2 techs of a hut and feel that the game was a level or 2 below ? that is the situation of this AI vs the poor guys that have Hunting and/or wheel as starting techs in Immortal )

 

[Gliese 581]

Bleys: Yes in my latest deity game with Isabella I have disabled huts as a crutch since deity AIs get almost all huts, especially when you start with a warrior like the spanish do.
For the cookbook series as you mention, they are just a bit to random (just like events) and do nothing to illustrate well the proper outcome of different games.

 

[Dresden]

From a quick debug run (BTS 3.17) watching what happens with CvPlayer::doGoody(), I can verify that AIs do in fact always get Noble Level goody hut odds. However, Noble and Deity (and everything in between) have the same chance at popping a tech (1/10); only the first 3 difficulty levels have any variance in the tech chance. So the main advantage an AI would get in regard to popping techs in a high-level game is that they have more units out exploring and those units are less likely to be killed by popping barbs.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

nothin' is more annoying then gettin' an open borders offer in -3.5k on deity. Like they don't have enough advantages already...

though I have to confess I've always played with huts on, no clue why.

 

[Bleys]

Interesting.

At what point do you folks feel the advantage turns around, and goes from the player to the AI. I mean, at Prince, I often started with Scout/Warrior-->Worker--->Warrior, just to get an extra unit out grabbing huts. At that level, I think the player gets a fair share.

At Emp, I rarely get more huts than whatever happens to be within 5 tiles of my starting square. Sometimes thats 3, other times its 1. I cant count the Emp level games where I got 2 or less huts, and noticed that some AIs seemed to have an impossible amount of techs.

It is good to know that the odds between Noble huts and Deity huts popping a tech are the same, but the AIs are almost certain to grab at least a few techs through sheer volume.

We all know that various game settings make certain games easier or harder, beyond just what level of difficulty we choose. No tech brokering, slower speeds, no vassals, etc, etc, can all play a role in the "true difficulty". I think I am going to start playing my Immortal tries with huts off, as a way to make it easier without it being obviously blatantly so.

 

[semirami]

Yes, it's easier without huts on higher difficulties. It's true that on Deity you have the same 10% odds for tech, but you have 50% for barbs as well. There is an additional disadvantage. If AI pops barbs and you're close, they will kill your unit, instead of theirs .I even have a game, when the barb warrior just came straight to my borders and 2 turns later:"You have been defeated".

 

[batavier]

Yes, it's easier without huts on higher difficulties. It's true that on Deity you have the same 10% odds for tech, but you have 50% for barbs as well. There is an additional disadvantage. If AI pops barbs and you're close, they will kill your unit, instead of theirs .I even have a game, when the barb warrior just came straight to my borders and 2 turns later:"You have been defeated".

You have a bigger chance of a tech on deity, if you pop the hut with a scout, or if you pop it no more than 7 tiles from your capital. If you use a warrior further from the capital you get 10% chance of a tech, but 50% chance of barbarians, If no barbarians can appear you get a reroll. This means that
the probability of a tech is slightly more than 20%, as you also get a 5%
chance for healing, wich can only happen if you are wounded.

I just popped a football field of huts with mechinfs to find out that barbarians can only appear in the 8th ring.

Starting at emperor, the AI is guaranteed hunting and scouts, so there is a bigger chance of a tech.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

At what point do you folks feel the advantage turns around, and goes from the player to the AI.

emperor; unless you draw a guy with hunting. Usually, even with 1 scout, you can pop more then the average ai(though probably 1-2 of them will be better off, plus higher chances of tech, but... 1 tech for you > 1 tech for them)

 

[tycoonist]

yeah, i have huts turned off now: the AI gets about 90% of them, and mostly all they do to me is give me a map, or kill my warrior

 

[semirami]

You have a bigger chance of a tech on deity, if you pop the hut with a scout, or if you pop it no more than 7 tiles from your capital. If you use a warrior further from the capital you get 10% chance of a tech, but 50% chance of barbarians, If no barbarians can appear you get a reroll. This means that
the probability of a tech is slightly more than 20%, as you also get a 5%
chance for healing, wich can only happen if you are wounded.

I just popped a football field of huts with mechinfs to find out that barbarians can only appear in the 8th ring.

Starting at emperor, the AI is guaranteed hunting and scouts, so there is a bigger chance of a tech.

7 tiles rule is new for me. But if you can't pop barbs close to your capital AI certenly can. It happend to me at least twice and I lost the game once at turn 6. And yes you're right, about scouts on deity, but I still prefer warriors, just because scouts life is too short

 

[Gliese 581]

I would say emperor and up you're probably better off with no huts.

 

[Bleys]

LOL, this cracked me up, so I thought I would share it. I got the circumvent bonus in 1000 BC because of a map popped from a hut. Its a large Fractal. I might have gotten the bonus without the map anyway, but its still good for a chuckle. For the record, the Settler popped the map on that island when he settled that city you see.

Spoiler :

People talk about how certain factors affect play at various levels of difficulty, and I think one of the biggest overlooked factors is huts. Remember those times on Prince when you popped a 2nd Scout from the hut in Cap's first ring, and before you were done you were teching CoL at 2500 BC because you got 4 techs from Huts? Then, in your last Immortal attempt, you failed to get a single hut because 5 AI scouts showed up in your back yard, and suddenly Mansa is asking for Open Borders.