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Change Spain to an exploration Civ.

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Ticio, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Ticio

    Ticio Warlord

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    As Byzantium has taken the spot for "religious/conquest" based civ and we are not sure if Portugal will be in the game, I was thinking that Spain could change a bit to be a little more "Exploration" focused so we do not lose this kind of civ in CIV VI.


    I suppose it is late to change much a Civ, so I was thinking on some very easy examples.


    Of course, only one or 2 changes could be use, as the exercise is to Change Spain a little to make it more focused on exploration but also still have the ability to play Religious/conquest... not to make them OP.

    Some points are just to make them more viable and versatile and be able to face Byzantium (on paper they are a counterbalance to them but in reality they cannot compete against them).


    Some changes could be:


    I) Philip:

    1) add/change some exploration bonuses to Philip II.


    a) XP, gold or faith bonuses when discovering Natural wonders

    b) When Spain discovers a Natural Wonder gains Great Prophet points (More points if he is the first to do it, and after founding a religion) (Thanks to Jesses!).
    This could improve the actual problem of Spain not having any bonus founding a religion, but also give an "exploration" bonus!

    c) Unique Unit: Galleon with maybe +10 Cs on oceanic tiles or +4 Combat Strength for each adjacent Galleon.

    (The galleon system and ship, basically, started with Philip II and turned famous during his period).

    d) Add a bonus to "el Escorial". Spanish religious units could have the ability to cross ocean tiles. If any unit (naval, military or civilian) goes in formation with a religious unit, they can go through ocean tiles too. (Thank you CoconutTank)
    This would allow Spanish to reach other continents through water early on, giving them a chance to colonize or conquest some cities there. Right now, they have a strong disadvantage to take land in other continents, as they do not have bonuses to water (even if they were the ones to reach the new continent IRL).

    I think is a great idea from CoconutTank as the bonus would not be very strong:
    - Early low number of religious units = few units crossing oceans).
    - Wanting faith points for other purchases, not exploring
    - Using the religious units for converting instead of exploring.

    e) Give spanish explorers/ recon units the ability to go through oceanic tiles since the start (or after discovering a wonder or Astrology). This way, they could explore new lands, letting the Civ anticipate thebest way to colonize other continents (so they have a tiny advantages as they know what is there).


    2) Make a Philip II persona only focused on Exploration.

    Adding some of the bonuses stated before and maintaining the "religious" Philip.



    II) Treasure Fleet:



    1) Improve Intercontinental bonus:

    This is a change I already made in a past post but I think could be interesting; +1 production +1 food per every continent the trader goes through (If the trader goes through trade post or cities that are in different continents it add the bonus. This way the bonus follow up with the increasing prices and is not OP as it depends on the number of continents and if you manage to do a trade line that match the requisites).


    2) Add a bonus that allow Spain to make longer trade routes. This bonus would allow them to trade double distance, so 30 tiles for land and 60 for water instead of 15/30. This would allow Spain to take profit easier from their intercontinental bonus and give them a pretext to Explore other lands.

    Most important, if they spawn in the center of a continet, they could reach civs/cities in other continents (depending on the map, more that 15 tiles for sure) but also allowing them to settle a second or third city in other continent and gain the bonus without having to wait for 30 turns for the trading post (right now you can send a city to another continent but still not reach it with traders)

    I first exposed this idea for a City state or a Great Person, but it could be nice for Spain as it would represent perfectly what happened with their trade line in Manila (Philippines) that did ships go, without stops, from Philippines to actual Mexico!


    3) Change the ability to form Armadas and Fleets and give Spain the ability to build directly the armadas and Fleets before the Seaport. Maybe with a port building that allows them to do it without being OP. That would allow them to make good use of their bonus, as it is far better to make a fleet or armada directly from the seaport (as it is faster and take much lesser resources) that to build ships 1 each time and then merge. them. The building would turn obsolete as soon as you research electricity, but that would prevent Spain being too strong on water maps.

    III) Contextual and Synergic changes:*

    1) Change Religious Beliefs:

    a) Change "Warrior Monks" so instead of "Burial grounds", it comes with "defender of the faith". This way, Spain can chose to defend herself early (monks+ 5 cs) and still use burial grounds that is her most synergetic belief. (As other civs have very synergetic beliefs (Work ethic/Russia/Mali/etc-Crussade/Byz.), Spain is lacking one).

    b) Add a Belief that affects different continents. Something based in the Holy orders that went to new continents (Jesuits, Dominicans, etc.). It could be "double religious pressure on holysites in another continent" or whatever.

    2) Add a City State that have a bonus that plays with different continents.



    If you like the idea, feel free to add whatever bonus you think could make Spain more of an "exploration" civ.

    Also to criticize my ideas!


    *EDIT: I'm adding some ideas I didn't though before that could make of a better "explorer" civ but also better religious.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
    Kjimmet, bbbt, CoconutTank and 2 others like this.
  2. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    I would be surprised if we don't get Portugal at some point to fill this role
     
    Kjimmet, bbbt, CoconutTank and 3 others like this.
  3. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I'm sure Portugal will eventually get in the game as the exploration civ, so I'm not for certain we need an exploration side of Spain.

    Though I think Isabella would do fine as another leader if you would like them to be focused on exploration.

    Plus Spain is a little different than Byzantium. Spain is conquest then convert while Byzantium is convert then conquest. :D
     
    Ticio likes this.
  4. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

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    No way they are redoing a whole civ without at least adding a new leader. However I see your point in that Byz does everything related to war and religion better.

    I would argue that Spain sould rather be focused to be all about conversion after conquest, and being able to hold on to far off colonies (the mission and trade bonus already point in that direction)

    To me the Conquistador's rapid insta conversion should be given to all Spanish Apostles, that way it becomes a constant Spanish feature and would avoid the wonkiness of having to carry a conquistador around in later eras just to trigger the ability. Why apostles and not Inquisitors? becasue that way you can have the medic apostles follow the army. (besides they are bit more expensive to balance it out)

    Then you tweak the Conquistador to plunder mode: Gain gold per number of population when you capture a city following a different religion.

    That way Spain marching to war to fight infidels becomes an actually terrifying force, they will always mass plunder and insta convert cities, and after the dust settles you bring the missions and trade routes to stabilze your recent conquest.
     
  5. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    From a single player perspective, I just want Civ 5 Spain back. Free settlers on natural wonder finds and double natural wonder yields.
     
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  6. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    England has changed from originally being about British Museums into a much heavier industrial focus, so it's certainly not impossible for them to make wholesale changes to a civ without adding in a leader.

    I'd love to see them bring back a form of the bonus from natural wonders from before. Doesn't have to be so crazy as in Civ5, but even something like "all units gain +4 combat strength within 8 tiles of a natural wonder" or something just unique and weird that makes them more interesting to play.
     
    Ticio likes this.
  7. Ticio

    Ticio Warlord

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    I too think that we will have Portugal, but a lot of people seems to think that after this "european" pack (Gaul and Byzantium) there is no more place for them... so I started panicking a bit...

    Maybe Isabella is too much work for the developers, for this reason I thought of a "Phillip Persona" with trade/exploration focus.
    Or just add an exploration bonus to the vanilla one, as inquisitors are kind of meh, I think he could have a tiny bonus without turning him OP.
     
  8. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    I'm not sure that Spain should be refocused on exploration/overseas trade as that would pretty much block any potential Portugese civ...

    But Spain is one of the civs most in need of a balance pass. Even just a bonus to founding a religion would help...
     
  9. Palo

    Palo Chieftain

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    Galleons could perhaps station themselves on sea trade route paths to boost them significantly?
     
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  10. Ticio

    Ticio Warlord

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    The change would only be if they are not adding Portugal (I hope they add portugal), if not I think Spain could be the same except for some little boost.
     
  11. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

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    How about Spain gains 20-30 great prophet points on discovering a natural wonder (converted to 80-120 faith if they've already founded a religion)?
     
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  12. Chekko

    Chekko Chieftain

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    Spain should get a buff. I like the theme of Spains abilities. Portugal should be the exploration civ imo.
     
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  13. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I still think Portugal has a chance in NFP considering Gaul fits better with Byzantium together in a pack. Still I'm sure if Portugal was left out of this season it would come in another.

    I guess I don't necessarily see Phillip as an exploration leader considering it feels like most of the discoveries were made before his time which is why I suggested Isabella. But I still think that would suit Portugal better.
     
  14. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    I enjoy Spain's core gameplay loop. But it's slow - only comes online at conquistadors - and it's not as satisfying if you can't score a relgion of your own.
     
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  15. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir King

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    Besides the religion game, spamming Missions can also be fun, as they are one of the few UIs that give you science - although they comes online really late, and need you to find a foreign continent, something Spain don't have the bonus of. Automatically receiving the Cartography eureka upon researching other sea-based technology may help with that, and historically Spain was good at it.
     
  16. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    Spain is for conquesting against heathens. Byzantium is for conquesting against people using your own religion incorrectly. They're similar, but not that really the same playstyle. I do think Spain needs a bit of a buff, though. Spain was a major trading and colonization empire and I think their bonuses towards that are a bit too meager. I think the Mission should come a bit earlier, and also spread religious pressure on other continents. I think Spain should also get some unique bonus for fighting civs on foreign continents (somewhat similar to the Redcoat), but let's make theirs a naval bonus. Perhaps +10 str to naval units if fighting an empire whose capital is on another continent?
     
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  17. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Prince

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    Give Spain the ability to make a Religion from a Holy City they conquer there own. That doesn't make much sense historicaly but would give them a different way to play. Give them a universal +5 strength against Holy Cities.
     
  18. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I would like an exploration civ, but I would also like exploration to be much better than it is now for every civ:
    • Recon units should have more sources of XP. In Vox Populi they gain XP just for unveiling the map. An alternative approach might be to give them XP for uncovering named features (vaguely similar to exploration in forgotten classic Conquest of the New World). Another alternative might be to uncap barbarian XP for Recon units.
    • Being the first to discover something should get you something. A boost of faith or culture, some great person points, some gold, I don't know. Spain, or another exploration focused civ, could have these bonuses enhanced. Again, looking at CotNW, discovering a feature earned you the right to name it, as well as points (which is what you played for in that game).
    • Put more things to discover on the map. I suspect I am one of the few people who still play Beyond Earth, but I really liked the concept of expedition sites (which you got in addition to your basic goodie huts). An Explorer unit would spend multiple turns to pop an expedition site, and each Explorer only had a certain number of charges to spend before they would need to return to a friendly city to restock. The benefits could be significant, though: either a solid goodie hut bonus, or an affinity level, or an artifact. Artifacts could be combined and spent to earn unique bonuses and even buildings or wonders. I don't know how much of this could be successfully translated to a non-scifi or fantasy game, but there's no doubt some of it could. Other games, like Fallen Enchantress, have quests on the map, so that's another option to make exploration more interesting.
     
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  19. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    Maybe +1 trade route for every holy city you control?

    I think what differentiates Spain from byzantium is Spain's bigger focus on intercontinental warfare and stronger trade routes. So I think they should get some extra trade routes somewhere. I'm tempted to give them Victoria's +1 trade route per continent. But perhaps +1 trade route per holy city is more thematic.

    Talking about other civs I think Norway should get +1 oil from offshore oil wells to allow them to still keep a large modern navy. As well as being thematic. Tbh I have lots of ideas on how to give the old civs a bit of a boost
     
  20. Ticio

    Ticio Warlord

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    This one is very interesting. I thought just about some bonuses for discovering natural wonders (gold, faith etc) but did not though about great prophet points! that could improve Spain's problem to get a religion why still being focused on exploration!

    I will add it to the list!

    You are totally right, during Philip reign they started to consolidate the empire and all the burocracy! They did many discoveries in the Pacific Ocean (true, not as appealing as the discoveries of new continents and civilizations). Is for this reason I always says that thematically, Spain in Civ VI is just perfection. All the bonus make sense and are incredible coherent with the reign of Philip II.

    My only fear is if Portugal do not appear... as exploration is my favorite "game style" I would love to see a civ capable of it (if not Portugal, then Spain could have a bonus to satisfy it).

    My dream would be that they announce Portugal and therefore the changes would not be needed (except the bonus that JesseS said and the one that wouls stack +1 Prodct/food per continent crossed, these, I think, could improve a lot Spain).
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020

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