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Changed spawn dates

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Enyavar

    Enyavar Prince

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    Hey I pondered the matter a bit. Why not do it the other way around: start the civilization a certain time before an "empire" was historically evident. Call them "xyz people", like the freshly spawned civs now. Don't grant them access to their UP, UB and UU and their whole flip zone until they have reached some starting goal. In that same time, they aren't bothered yet from barbarians, natives and independents, and are immune to DoWs.

    Examples:
    - Greece (1600 bc start, mycenic people) needs some starter tech. To prevent the obligatory conquest of Babylon and egypt in 800 bc(!), they get their conquest army as a reward for fulfilling parts of the two other goals.
    - Romans (etruskan people, starting 800 Bc with a settler and archers) need to settle Northern italy on their own and connect Rome and the Po with a road). No longer can the Roman player attack greece or carthage in 700 Bc! As a reward, on the flip they get another two settlers, two legions. Because time is too short for recruiting for the punic/gallic wars, they get a bonus legion in Rome for every part-uhv they fulfilled (four barracks, three aqueducts...)
    - Babylon (3000 BC start as akkadians/assyrians) needs to build a ziggurat before being allowed to build workers/settlers?
    - Phoenicia (1600 BC start in pre-existing Sur) needs to build a ship and a settler and found carthage. Settler should still be cheaper though...
    - Mongolia (1000 AD start) needs to settle the plains and build 3 tengri hills and 2 gers and four horsemen. While their people form, barbarian horses in the area gather in Mongolian settlements and remain there until the flip... Or sth. like that.
    - Japan (back to the RFC dates?), really backwards techs, needs some culture/military tech?
    - Kongo (500 AD start) needs to tech to medieval and contact the Europeans (reward includes the first catholic spread!)
    - Frankic peoples (400 Ad start in Burgundy) have to occupy the land between Bordeaux and Magdeburg - once fulfilled, founding of both France and HRE, splitting the Frankians up.
    - Arabic tribes, um... Unlike in reality, that region is empty and not settled at all. History tells me that pre-islamic arabia can be traced back until 800 Bc (!) but that seems a bit far for the game. Just let the player connect the camels and sheep, let him build a fixed amount of camel archers until 620, then found Islam for him and multiply his troops as a reward for good preparation.

    And so on, I think most civs have a predecessor culture that they formed out of, and this can be modelled historically.
    Civs that start in already occupied lands, are assigned the cities of the dominating civ there, but remain their vassal until the conditions are fulfilled. Modern (esp. new world) civs would probably need a certain amount of soldiers or a tech, to declare independence.

    Naturally, the AI would suck at fulfilling any goals, so a scripted flip would be timed to the "historical" spawn date.
    No longer a mongol army will appear in 1200 out of thin air with a fully fledged empire!

    (Edit, yes I know why this dream won't happen in doc 1.16, but hey, while it is a dream I think it is also a valid suggestion for future improvement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  2. MalayanGamer

    MalayanGamer Chieftain

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    Italy spawn date spawn should change to 697 AD the year The Serene Republic of Venice was Founded.
     
  3. citizenofdoom

    citizenofdoom Chieftain

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    i build it in monrach and no stone needed, build the sphinx first and gamble your luck in 11 turns pyramids and no confucian, it's sucks
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    The goal is whatever is the best play experience for a given civilisation, and the surrounding civilisations that are affected by it.
     
  5. Lokki242

    Lokki242 That One Guy

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    I don't think there is any issue with some spawns being based on predecessor states and others not being so: as I noted in my post, Mali can spawn at their predecessor (Gao) or at a later date, I was just noting that we had options.

    And with the English I was not advocating the rise of the major English state as a spawn, I was suggesting the rise of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms instead.
     
  6. EdmundIronside

    EdmundIronside Prince

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    I would generally vote for spawns based on that Nations first undisputed leader, unless there are specific game play reasons to not to do this, or if that civ is more representative of a culture (such as Polynesia, Vikings, Greeks). It is complex though, take the English for example, you could have the following spawn dates:
    450 AD = Anglo-Saxon main migration to England
    519 AD = reign of Cerdic, first King of Wessex
    802 AD = reign of Egbert, representing Wessex becoming the most powerful English kingdom, achieved title of Bretwalda 'ruler of the British'
    871 AD = reign of Alfred, often recognized as the first king of the English (due to the collapse of the other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms)
    927 AD = Athelstan, the first individual to be recognized throughout England as recognized as king of the English
    1066 AD = William I inflicts a devastating defeat on the English, and his reign leads to the devastation of the north of the country (I only included this date as it bizarrely appears to be the date chosen for the English spawn in Rhyes and Fall Europe)!

    So in summary choosing spawn dates is really hard! :crazyeye:
     
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  7. JHLee

    JHLee Prince

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    I am afraid that AI France will
    a) get pulverised by the Huns (might even collapse, lose to barb lowers stability)
    b) mindlessly expand into Germany or Spain, losing their strength after these civs spawn.

    Is there a particular reason France should spawn earlier?

    I agree with the changes to Maya and China.
    I also support the Russian spawn location change to Kiev.

    As for delaying the Aztec spawn, isnt their 1st uhv goal already hard enough?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
    Crimean Lord likes this.
  8. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Prince

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    Alfred’s era marks the point when England becomes a player on a wider stage than just England, IMO—roughly his reign is a good spot for the English spawn.

    As for barbarians messing with an early France, that suggests that barbarians should be reworked instead. They should “finish the job” of collapsing Rome just before the French spawn and then disappear IMO. For French settlement in bad places, can’t the settler map just be changed to extremely discourage it?

    Ha, I like this characterization of William’s reign. That’s a good point about the English spawn in RFCE, too...

    We’ve been telling Leoreth we need a Venice civ for years, but will he listen?
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Honestly, RFCE should have a Norman and an Anglo-Saxon civ. Their scale is large enough that treating them the same feels wrong.
     
  10. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    I don't know if anyone agrees with this but it might be worth looking at. As far as Canada goes, the game is extremely short and it's a mad race to complete the UHVs, in fact I've never successfully completed the UHV that requires control of all Canadian cities and 90% of Canadian territory without conquering any cities simply because of that pesky St. John's, Newfoundland. The only reliable way to accomplish that would be to overwhelm by culture somehow or through congresses which ?don't always happen? and the timeframe is just too small. Correct me if anyone has managed it. Anyway, if we were to change Canada's spawn date we could move it up to 1840 the year of the Act of Union which united Upper and Lower Canada into a single province. This was also shortly after 1837 Upper and Lower Canada Rebellions a significant moment in the birth of the nation. So it could be an appropriate place for an alternative spawn point.
     
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  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Stalin and Starlight, Stalling a Stallion

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    NOOOOOOOOOOO. No! Is the Sun supposed to set on the British Empire at 2PM? It's bad enough that the UHV deadline is so ridiculously early, no need to mangle the English game even further just to make life easier for a civ that should really only spawn in the 20th century to begin with.
     
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  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Why not talk about Canada here too? The discussion is about spawn dates and this is a bit more complicated but maybe we can find a solution.

    I know a popular idea is to make Canada spawn as a vassal, but playing as a vassal isn't easy to implement in a way that I would consider accurate/balanced, so let's file that for later. But how about treating Canada more like e.g. Byzantium? Spawn at the current date is guaranteed when you start as them from autoplay, but otherwise it depends on the situation in Canada. If there is a strong British presence in Canada their spawn could be disabled. If we set their possible respawn time to the whole game after their theoretical spawn we can still have them spawn later.

    Conversely, AI Canada could spawn as a peace vassal to whoever is strongest in Canada by default (so only player Canada wouldn't be a vassal until that is properly implemented). Peace vassal means they are likely to break free when they expand their territory to a larger percentage of their master.
     
  13. Ani Taneen

    Ani Taneen Warlord

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    I second this idea.

    The splitting empire under the Carolingians? Sounds about right.

    As for Spain, I think that a moorish spawn event would be a good way to limit the French, if it came to that.
     
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  14. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Prince

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    I actually sort of like the idea of an early blob France which then gets ruthlessly taken apart by later spawns and flips. And if they take Italy early they can keep it if they’re stable—that’s plausible enough given the historical Carolingians.
     
  15. Orbii

    Orbii Warlord

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    I third this idea, but with the caveat that it should not apply to the USA. Without radically changing some assumptions about early American/Canadian history and development, I don't see any outcome where the USA is the dominant power in present-day Canada but nevertheless willingly renounces those territories the way that the British did (or in the alternative, the French, Spanish, or any other Old World colonizer). The proximity and contiguous location of Canada to the American core and the idea of Manifest Destiny makes it, in my opinion, kind of unthinkable for a USA who has succeeded in conquering Canada to let them go peacefully. See historical attempts by USA to militarily annex Canada:
    Furthermore, Canadian Confederation was influenced by this military threat that the USA posed following the Civil War, and for the British, was a way of offloading the defense of those colonies to a new pseudo-sovereign entity. While there were other reasons for Confederation, not many of them would apply if the colonies were already annexed into the USA. In other words, the peaceful separation of the Canadian colonies from the British Empire would not be replicable with the USA as the overlord instead. See briefly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Confederation#Influences_leading_to_Confederation

    If the quoted approach is taken, I think it'd be best for a two-pronged (if possible) approach for AI spawns:
    • If Canada is dominated by a colonial power, then they spawn as a peace vassal of the colonizer.
    • If Canada is dominated by the USA, then they spawn as an independent civ if the USA becomes unstable (ala Byzantium).
      • Not the most historically accurate in my opinion, as Canada's national identity is largely artificial and a conquered Canadian core (in 1775/1812) would probably be culturally assimilated into the USA very very quickly. However, if the goal of maintaining Canada as a damper on the USA is sought (ala Tibet to China, Austria to Prussia, Poland to HRE, etc.), then this is probably the best approach, or maintaining the current fixed spawn.
     
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  16. Lokki242

    Lokki242 That One Guy

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    I disagree with this sentiment largely due to the presence of French Canadians, who if anything would be MORE incensed under U.S. rule, since they'd be a very small minority in the larger state without any special privelages most likely, as opposed to at least somewhat represented in a Canadian state. An uprising in this case would most likely represent a French Canadian independence movement from the USA
     
  17. Orbii

    Orbii Warlord

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    No disagreement with what you've stated here, but anything about how a conquered Lower Canada would be treated is purely speculative. It's possible the Francophone population would be entirely displaced/disenfranchised (like the British with the Acadians) or would be given greater relative autonomy as appeasement, ala the BNA

    In any event, I agree with how you characterized a Canadian revolt against an unstable USA. In game mechanics, the French/Independent culture would cause instability to the USA, until it is completely assimilated.
     
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  18. Hightower

    Hightower Prince

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    I would like to have Spain and the Moors modeled a bit better, with the Moors starting with most of Iberia and the Spanish/Castilians starting with just Leon so that it is a real challenge to drive the Moors out of Iberia as opposed to the Spanish clearly having the upper hand over the Moors from the beginning. This would probably involve the Spanish spawn moving a bit later to 924 (founding of the Kingdom of Leon) and the Moor flipzone expanding to cover all of Iberia except Barcelona (although it was briefly controlled by the Moors as well) and Leon.
     
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  19. JHLee

    JHLee Prince

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    Madrid has too much production, the Moors could easily pump out a huge army to reflect any attempts of reconquista.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  20. JHLee

    JHLee Prince

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    Anything that is too complicating to implement could easily end up with unwanted situations.
    Moving Canada's spawn date to the early 19c seems like a good, simple solution.

    What are you talking about?
    The deadline for the British colony is 1730 and the deadline for the ships is 1800.
    Both are before the proposed date for Canada's spawn.
     
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