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Changed spawn dates

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Orbii

    Orbii Chieftain

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    Personally I think it's just impossible to model a Dutch vassal spawn without historical railroading. The fact that Spain came across possession of the Netherlands was through Austrian royal marriages that produced the Burgundian inheritance, and in turn Spain acquired that portion of the Habsburg pie due to splitting of the Habsburg territories following Charles V. You can't model any of these things organically in game in a way that would not just railroad it to history. Further, the history itself is subject to very easy revision: what if Ferdinand got the Netherlands rather than Philip? So if you decided to railroad the Habsburg inheritance, you could have the situation resolve either with a Spain or HRE master. But then even further back, what if Mary of Burgundy married an English prince, or a French prince, or a Byzantine prince, or a Russian prince? The inheritance would then devolve to that country and the Dutch should spawn as their vassal, but how in the world could you even get close to modelling that?

    Then for gameplay concerns, you don't have the same situation with Canada (or any other Commonwealth country that's added) where they operated pseudo-independent until 1931 and the Statute of Westminster. The Dutch were not autonomous at all within the Spanish Empire and won independence through force of arms rather than gradual peaceful devolution. This outcome is better modelled with a sudden flip than with a gradual slow grind.

    Having the Dutch just spawn independently and presume they won independence from whoever is the best outcome for gameplay and history.
     
  2. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

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    You're not wrong Re: railroading... Just a wild idea. I do think it's weird that there's just nothing there before the Dutch spawn though. Just an empty corner of Europe. Also spawning as a vassal of HRE would be terrible because HRE would completely engulf Amsterdam with Hamburg, whereas Spain does not border the Netherlands. Also gaining independence from Spain as the tiny Dutch would be difficult. Unless the Spanish make a demand that results in war.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    In the new map I think it makes sense to have the HRE found a city there.
     
  4. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    Yes, I remember that in GEM, there is Utrecht in Netherland (belongs to HRE) in 1500ad scenerio.
     
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  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I started working on this, beginning with the Maya. No feature branch yet, and changes will probably go directly to develop.

    I think it works quite well as it is so far. Changes:
    - Maya spawn moved to 400 BC
    - Spawn of barbarian units and Dannibaan adjusted accordingly
    - improvements can be built on Rainforest with Alloys (instead of Bloomery)
    - removed a few Maya starting techs
    - new Maya UP: Power of the Long Count: Cities receive additional food whenever a new technology is discovered before the medieval era
    - changed Ball Court: requires Calendar, no extra happiness over Arena, cheaper

    I am still testing the UHV, but the first goal can be moved earlier, making it more historically accurate. I think 200 AD would be a challenging enough deadline at the moment. The second goal can stay as it is, getting both the tech and sufficient production to build the wonder in time is still challenging enough by 900 AD. I will probably leave the last goal to playtesting, but it's as usual meant to be more challenging.
     
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  6. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

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    Nice!
    What's the rationale for this date? Seems a bit late to me.
     
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  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I think everything in the preclassic period (i.e. before 250 AD) is sort of arbitrary. For the most part of that period, it is my understanding that Maya society wasn't very sophisticated with mostly agrarian and tribal structures, and it seems that if anything the first developments happened in a few urban centers to the south of where the Maya start in the game. I did not research that deeply though.

    Wikipedia gives 400 BC as the start of the late preclassic period and that seemed good enough for me, but I mostly chose a date in this area for gameplay purposes. I initially tried 750 BC, but that didn't really work as well for gameplay purposes. There aren't that many decisions to make at the Maya tech level so the game becomes boring if you have too much time, because then you can just do everything that is available to you. I really liked being pressed for time with their original start, and using 400 BC and the removal of the old UP achieves roughly the same kind of challenge.
     
  8. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

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    Makes sense. Gameplay reasons are the best reasons.

    I think 750 BC works well in my modmod because there is a rival civilization rising in 200 BC at Teotihuacan, and it feels right that the Maya have considerable time to develop before that happens. If the Maya are alone, then I agree, the game would get boring.

    You might want to consider that if and when you add other Mesoamerican civilizations. (E.g. it would make sense for the Zapotecs to spawn in 700 BC, but they shouldn't be the first civilization to rise in the area.)
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    That's true. However I would only consider adding another civ in Mesoamerica after the new map is introduced, which then changes the game anyway. After that I can reconsider what the right starting dates are.
     
  10. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    Some food for discussion about a minor thing about the new Mayan UP.

    The current UP provides 20 / #cities food to each city. However due to rounding food will be wasted. For example, if you have 3 cities, each city gets 6 food and 2 food will be wasted. My suggestion is to give all wasted food to the capital. Alternatively, the wasted food can be distributed among the most cultural cities. (Similar how the resources are distributed)

    I just throw up the idea. I didn't make up my mind if I really think this should be included.

    PS.
    Thinking of it, in the unlikely situation in which the Maya get more then 20 cities before the medieval era, no city will get food due to the rounding. :lol:
    (This can be a nice new challenge: As Maya, make sure that the UP stops working before the medieval era)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I'm fine with this, the UP is meant to be less consequential the more cities you have.
     
  12. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Ball court replaces arena not stadium, so it should provide 2 happy faces right? Now it looks like a stadium replacement with 1 happy face and bonus from hit football event.
     
  13. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I already made a PR with a fix.
     
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  14. adhiraj.bose

    adhiraj.bose Chieftain

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    Any call on the Mughals ? The Turkic invasions of india really began with the breakdown of the Seljuk Empire and independent Turkic kingdoms emerging in modern day Afghanistan. Having a militaristic Turko-mongol civ flipping North Western india and conquering the rest of the sub-continent over time is both more realistic and more fun. Then the spawn date would also be shifted back a bit.
     
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  15. Lokki242

    Lokki242 That One Guy

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    I still heavily support my suggestions in this post.
     
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  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I think I'm leaning more towards leaving the French spawn unchanged now. Moving it earlier only introduces new problems, such as a realistic transition to Catholicism and making sure they survive against the still ongoing barbarian invasions. It would provide more opportunities to set up an even stronger starting position for France. 750 AD also makes a lot of sense from a historical perspective so it's okay to leave this unchanged I think.
     
  17. Genghis Khaiser

    Genghis Khaiser Chieftain

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    I agree with all of this except for:

    4. Kind of, Eastern India was the seat of most Indian major empires.

    5. I found that the 800 BC date is for the Median Empire. Moving it to 550 BC would require them to expand quickly, both wide and tall.

    9. I found that European sources mention a Danish king who died in 515 AD.

    11. Because 481 is the foundation date of the Kingdom of France, while those earlier spawn dates reflect England's pre-unification kingdoms, so it should be either 886, 927, or 1066.

    17. If it doesn't affect the UHV that much, 1325 was the foundation date of Tenochtitlan.


    Other foundation dates could be:
    -Japan: Either 660 BC (Legendary foundation of Japan) or 270 AD (First historical emperor).
    -Indonesia: 650 AD.
    -Thailand: 1238 (Kingdom of Sukhotai).
    -Prussia: 1230 (State of the Teutonic Knights), 1525 (Duchy of Prussia), or 1660 (Brandenburg-Prussia).
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
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  18. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

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    I really liked the game with the new earlier starting date for the Maya. Nice mixture of combat, building and teching. UHV 1&2 are reliably doable, but demanding.:goodjob:

    UHV 3 on the other side feels strange/gamey(?). Setting a line of boats in the caribbean and hoping they see your boat earlier than the land. :undecide: (Discovering caravels is impossible before the europeans arrive, I think.)

    I like playing the Maya up to 16th century (subduing the Atztecs and expanding the empire), but the 3rd UHV could be more interesting.

    Suggestions

    - Survive the conquerers for 10-20 turns (easy) or even throw them back in the sea (doable).

    - Or have X population before 1492 in your empire.
     
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  19. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I got caravels before the Europeans arrived when I attempted the Mayans a few weeks ago.

    Combination of beelining, hiring scientists, conquering the Aztecs, and constructing the appropriate buildings.
     
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  20. Genghis Khaiser

    Genghis Khaiser Chieftain

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    Appropriate buildings?
     

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