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Changes to internal routes, economy, diplomacy, sponsor traits, and miasma

Discussion in 'CivBE - Ideas and Suggestions' started by nimling, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. nimling

    nimling Chieftain

    Mar 25, 2007
    (Based on the original game - can't be arsed to fit RT's wonky diplomacy system into this, but I think something can be worked wth, and diplomacy in RT probably needs to be reworked. I can't really comment on stuff like diplomatic capital and shared abilities, but most of this addresses fundamental issues with BE's economy.)

    So yeah, BE's economy is pretty busted. One of the biggest offenders is internal routes crapping out free food and hammers, and the way small cities are rewarded in the traderoute game. Having played enough of the base game, I'd propose the following to put some balance back into the game.

    Internal routes - No longer generate free hammers / food out of nowhere. At all. Rather, internal routes function like international routes in most respects, but don't gain the bonuses for autoplants, feedsite hubs, and so on. Internal routes generate far less energy than international routes.
    For both internal and foreign routes, energy generated is based on the size of both cities, with routes between two large cities being far more profitable than a route between a large and small, and way way more than between two small cities. Internal routes are 1/4th as effective at generating energy and gain no science. Science gained from international routes is based on the combined research of both cities, modified by an exponential factor favoring routes between cities with higher science rates; routes to small cities basically don't generate research on either end. A modifier is added for tech disparity, favoring the player who is behind in tech.

    However, Trade routes have the following effects:
    - Any basic resources are shared between the two cities, for the purposes of building requirements. For instance, if one city has silica, the other can build Optical Surgery. The resources must be improved.
    - Shared basic resources treat the city tile as if it has the basic resource, for buildings that improve the yield of a basic resource. For instance, a city receiving Copper gains +1 science with a Network. These yields are shown when forming a trade route.
    - A few resources grant bonuses simply for being part of a trade route. Gold and Coral, for instance, add +1 culture to the originating city, for internal and external trade routes. Only one of these bonuses is applied, so the limit on culture is +1, but an exporting city gains +1 for every trade route they make (unless the recipient city has improved gold/coral).
    - Some other resources give bonuses in combination with other resources, if the two cities have compatible resources. For instance, if one city has fungus and another has tubers, the route (at both ends) will give +1 food. This bonus is applied for any two cities which share more than one food resource, and is applied even if the resources surround one city. Some of these bonuses will require a building present in the city in order to be effective; for instance, and they stack with each other; the basic food combination is available at start, but something like fruits+fiber would require a mass digester.
    - Strategic resources will only travel along routes to access buildings, for instance Firaxite for Observatories. Unlike bonus resources, the city tile does not receive a bonus, but it does allow an observatory to be built. There are no bonuses for sharing strategics. Only internal routes can carry strategic resources, as other factions will not allow foreigners to access them.
    - Trade restrictions can be placed on foreign trade routes; a tariff can be levied, adding extra gold (and taking away profit) for the recipient, and charging the recipient for the exchange of bonus resources. This can cut both ways. However, doing this will naturally discourage players from forming trade routes with you, and raising a tariff has diplomatic consequences for AI. Additionally, when a tariff is levied, bonuses for resources and buildings are lost on both ends (exception for the wonder that gives culture for trade routes).
    - The virtue "Gift Economy" adds +1 culture for international and station routes and +1 energy for every 2 bonus resources acquired from international routes, instead of its current effect.
    - The virtue "Interdependence Network" adds a slot for 1 internal route in every city with a Trade Depot instead of its current effect.
    - The virtue "Profiteering" grants +0.25 health per trader.
    - Stations get a bit of an overhaul (more on that in their section).
    - The virtue "Alternative Markets" improves the base yield from stations by 25%, stations grant +1 energy for every bonus resource they naturally lack, and bonuses from resource exchange and buildings are 25% stronger.

    Right now internals give about 10-12 resources for every new city, and this is bad. Under the reformed system, trade routes would give something like:

    Big->Big foriegn (say both size 15, both empires close in science and both cities generate 40 sci): 22.5 base energy for sender, 5.625 base energy for receiver, 8 science for both, +1 culture to foreign city for gold, +1 energy for autoplant, +2 food on both ends for shared food (tubers, fungus, fruits are available, vivarium built in both cities), +1 science for both cities (feedsite hubs), +1 culture to foreign city for gift economy, +1.5 gold to foreign city for gift economy.

    Small->Big foreign: (size 5 to size 15, 10 sci to 40 sci): 6.25 base energy for sender, 1.5625 base energy for receiver, 1 science for both, foreign city has same building/resource bonuses and virtues, but small city lacks autoplant or feedsite hub. Sending the to the big city is going to be pretty bad, but the big city might have a resource you want. Presumably the big foreign city wants open markets due to its virtues.

    Finally - big change. Aliens no longer attack trade convoys unless they are hostile with you. You wouldn't believe how many times I cursed the screen about this. As such, the ultrasonic fence event has to be changed. If you piss off the aliens, you'll have to make sure your trade routes are clear, which adds some incentive to play nice with the buggers.

    Other economy changes:

    Population slider: Instead of population going 100% towards science, a slider is implemented. Population investment can be directed towards culture, science, gold, or production. By default, the game sets the tax rate to 50% gold and 50% science, so each population is giving 0.5 gold and 0.5 science. Technological advance, virtue acquisition, and sponsor choice affect the upper limit of each category for the slider; for instance, Franco-Iberia can run their culture slider to 80% from the very start, while Slavic Federation can put their science slider to 60% due to their scientific bent. Enough technological advance can allow 100% in anything. There is however a slight benefit for diversifying your population investment, up to +20% in all yields for an even split.

    For production, the yield is delivered directly to the local city.

    Culture and production slider can only go up to 20% at the start of the game, while energy/research/prod start at a limit of 50%. The energy and production sliders generate twice as many units as sci/culture, in order to compensate for the relative abundance of production/energy.

    Flat science buildings: All flat science from buildings and terrain is affected by the slider, unless specifically exempted. Percentage bonuses are NOT affected, nor are wonders. This prevents Lab/Network spam from getting around the slider, and blunts Academy spam (assuming they are dropped to 2 beakers).

    The net effect of this is to allow players to switch their empire according to their needs, rather than being locked into "get more pop, get more science".
    The virtues which add production, science, and knowledge per population are less effective, but allow the slider to be adjusted 20% higher and improve the bonus effect in their appropriate category.

    Techs which improve slider rate:
    Power Systems (+10% to production slider)
    Ballistics (+10% to research slider)
    Genetic Mapping (+10% to culture slider)
    Geophysics (+10% to energy slider)
    Fabrication (+10% to production slider)
    Biology (+10% to culture slider)
    Cognition (+10% to research slider)
    Communications (+10% to energy slider)
    Social Dynamics (+10% to research slider)
    Human Idealism (+10% to culture slider)
    Human Conservation (+10% to production slider)
    Euthenics (+10% to energy slider)
    Ballistic LEV (+10% to production slider)
    Alien Domestication (+10% to culture slider)
    Protogenetics (+10% to research slider)
    Field Theory (+10% to energy slider)
    Affinity 8 Purity: +10% to production slider
    Affinity 8 Supremacy: +10% to energy slider
    Affinity 8 Harmony: +10% to culture slider
    5 Affinity in all: +10% to research slider

    All of these slider bonuses also increase the yield of their respective areas by 5% (additive)

    Virtue tweaks:

    Public Security: +0.2 health per military unit and +1 health per 8 population in a city. Swaps places with Adaptive Doctrine in the tree, so it's a tier 2 item.
    Liberation Army: Shorter unrest in puppeted cities, outposts are replaced with your own outposts upon capture, automatically excavate the ruin of stations you destroy.
    Special Service: Extra covert agent from Spy Network, +25% intrigue
    Joint Operations: Stations provide 3 range orbital coverage, and gain 20% battle strength when you trade with them

    Workforce Initiative: Free worker, clear forests and miasma 33% faster.
    Colony Initiative: Moved to tier 2. Pioneer Spirit moved to tier 1, and made a prereq for Colony Initiative. Colony Initiative leads nowhere, Pioneer Sprit leads to Settler Clans and Settler Clans leads directly to Mind over Matter. This should allow players to take Colony Initiative and all Health virtues with only 10 picks, rather than being screwed into 11 picks. The main purpose tho is to move the free settler to 4th virtue, requiring a virtue which is kind of junk.
    Helping Hands: +10% production for Civilian units, +15% worker speed
    Gift Economy: Change mentioned above.
    Pathfinders: +2 expeditions for explorers, Explorers are 20% stronger in combat

    Social Mores: +20% limit to culture slider, +0.1 culture for every population and +1 culture for every 10 culture generated by a city after modifiers.
    Lab Apprenticeship: +20% limit to science slider, free maintenance for Laboratories
    Creative Class: Gain 10% global health when no category is at 0% funding, 30% of excess health is converted to culture to spend on virtues
    Field Research: +1 Movement for Explorers, gain science for expeditions. Expeditions which further distant research are 25% more useful.
    Applied Aesthetics (prereq Creative Class): +2 yield to energy/science/production/culture based on your colonist type, or +2 energy for other colonist types
    Community Medicine: Pay no maintenance on Clinics and Pharmalabs. Free Clinic, Pharmalab, or Cytonursery in every city. (in that order, new cities get a clinic).
    Information Warfare: Free covert agent. Gain 20% of pillaged gold from cities and improvements as science.

    Centralized Planning: +20% limit to energy slider, +5 energy in the capital
    Scalable Infrastructure: Moved to Tier 2, in place of Entrepreneurial Spaceflight. +20% limit to production slider, +15% towards Wonders
    Magnasanti: +0.25 health per building per population in a city. (Therefore Magnasanti is only giving +4 health in a size 16 city, rather than +bazillion.)

    In a nutshell - cut out the exploitable mechanics, have an AI that behaves rationally and only responds to rational things. No "you hurt the aliens therefore we don't like you" and certainly nothing that exists to be exploited by the human player. The AI should, as a rule, be averse to trading any strategy resource, nor should they keep asking to open borders. I would very much like an option to automatically reject the advances of an AI if they ask for particular things, and likewise there are items the AI should have no business trading away for any reason. Strategics should only be up for trade in a dire situation, or if the AI knows they can make a sick profit off of something that is cheap and nonthreatening for them. AIs will NEVER trade away a city even if they're losing badly, unless it's a city in revolt / puppet of yours, and likewise they won't bother asking for your cities unless you're really willing to offer them up. The AI will consider a war indemnity, usually an onerous one, and is more willing to buy peace with gold.

    No more units damaged by Miasma - this causes more AI pathfinding havoc and is a mild irritant to the human player. Instead, Miasma does a few things:
    - Blocks trade routes unless all units are immune to miasma penalties.
    - Aliens and Harmony-unique units have an advantage against Human units in miasma (even against generic Harmony units). Harmony generic units gain a slight edge in Miasma against other units.
    - High Harmony affinity levels allow for free Miasma healing (+5/turn)
    - Workers and Explorers take 50% longer to work in Miasma, unless they have the miasma immunity techs / immunity from affinity.
    - Additional unhealth in large cities with Miasma. Playing Harmony reduces this somewhat but does not entirely eliminate Miasmic health damage.
    - Tiles that normally yield 4 or more of a resource yield -1 of that resource when covered in Miasma. This effect is only lifted with an endgame Harmony tech.
    - Ranged units bombarding into Miasma are 20% less effective. Harmony affinity reduces and eventually eliminates this penalty.

    Thus, clearing Miasma is a big priority for economic reasons, and spreading Miasma to wreck economy is something to consider.

    Sponsor Traits:
    In short - everyone gets some Economic bonuses. These should be more balanced but would need fine tuning. Some bonuses are also uniquish. I'm not going to muck with the diplomatic currency stuff, which is a whole other can of worms.

    -25% time required for espionage, and intrigue generates 25% faster.
    All tiles which produce 3 or more energy produce +1 energy
    All tiles which produce 3 or more production produce +1 energy
    -5% upkeep for improvements
    (These bonuses can stack on the same tile)

    ARC is focused on big tile yields in energy and production, owing to their superior exploitation of natural resources. This can generate a lot of extra energy for the ARC, especially with virtues to enhance particular buildings. They really don't want Miasma on their prized tiles, as this will negate their bonus. They have no bonus in the capital or per-city bonus, so claiming the profitable terrain should be your first priority. They have no particular slider preference either.

    +20% worker speed and +10% construction speed for wonders
    +20% limit for production slider
    +20% effect from population (slider-based)
    -5% upkeep for buildings

    PAC's strength lies in its industrious population; the more people they can get, the better their results. This doesn't just affect industry, but everything - science, culture, gold, you name it. They also improve terrain faster and have a slight edge in building wonders. The ability to go harder on production earlier allows them to crank out those critical first units before most other factions.

    +10% growth in all cities when healthy
    All cities with a Command Center or Headquarters gain +1 food, production, culture, and science
    +1 culture in the capital
    -5% upkeep for units

    As before, PAU's start is one of the best, with a free set of resources in the capital that work for you on planetfall. Their bonus is a take on the Party Leadership tenet in Civ5. While Command Centers are pretty expensive and late-gameish, Barre has that much extra incentive to push for Communications.

    Kavithan Protectorate:
    -50% cost of purchasing tiles with gold or culture
    Outposts grow twice as fast
    +10% limit to slider for all categories
    +10% production for civilian units

    Cheaper settlers and flexibility with the slider give the KP a lot of choices in where to go. The centerpiece is their cheap border expansion and fast outpost growth, allowing KP to claim a lot of land quickly.

    +5 healing for all units
    +10% melee strength
    +1 research per active soldier or combat rover (affected by slider; prod/energy are thrown out when calculating this).
    Veteran status is 50% more effective (+15% per tier rather than +10%)

    Brasil's bonus unsurprisingly lies in military units - fielding a large army defrays some of the lost research or cultural investment. It's not a bad idea to go 50/20 on sci/culture to get the most out of your standing army. Any ranged units you build don't get this bonus however, and that should be the majority of your army in many games; nor do affinity-unique units, though they still get the melee and healing bonuses.

    Free Virtue for every 10 Virtues
    +40% limit to culture slider
    +1 culture from all specialists
    +25% culture in the capital
    Tree synergy requirements reduced by one (i.e. receive +10% growth in all cities with 4 prosperity instead of 5, gain free affinity level at 14 might instead of 15).

    Get culture, get win. The free virtue is a ways off and the start is punishingly slow, but you have a culture slider to help generate early virtues.

    +2 trade routes in the capital
    +25% energy from city connections
    +20% limit for energy slider
    Bypass the energy cost of tariffs
    New trade routes require 2 less population. (Next trade route at 8, 20, 32...)

    Wide is the name of the game, with your own private Machu Picchu you can rake in some serious money with a wide, peaceful empire, and the extra trade routes are another shot in the arm. Watch out for hostiles killing your traders.

    Slavic Federation:
    Free technology on Planetfall
    Orbital units last 50% longer
    +25% science in the capital
    +20% science slider limit

    In addition to their Orbital unit bonus, the Slavic Federation get to choose a free technology to start out, and have a natural affinity for science. They lost the free resources (no mulligans here, go down might ya hippies), but you could easily tech chemistry first.

    Al Falah:
    Processes are 50% more effective
    +1 energy on tiles producing <3 total resource (of any type)

    I haven't played with these guys, but with the changes I proposed the trade route thing should be less obnoxious.

    About what they are in RT, except for the water start thing.
    Also dunno about these guys, the free spy at start can do some really nice things.

    Sea people:
    Screw 'em

    Screw 'em!

    Building changes:

    Vivariums: No more extra food on deserts. Instead, they give +1 food for Fruits and open up the Fruits+Tubers trade pair for another +1 food on trade routes. This should close the "build terrascapes on desert for boffo food production" exploit.

    Mass Digester: +1 energy from forests and opens up Fruits+Fiber trade pair

    Various buildings open trade pairs as well, lots of minor stuff. The big one was the remove terrascape exploits.

    Wonder changes:

    Basically, overhaul them so that wonders are worth building. Here are some samples:

    Gene Vault:
    +4 global health, free colonist, +2 culture.
    Do you like a free city without health effects? The Gene Vault is for you! The AI will build this very often, sometimes in place of a settler. Races for this can end badly though, so in a close game it's a big gamble.

    Master Control:
    Free maintenance on Workers, +1 move for Workers, +5 science, and two free workers appear.

    Daedalus Ladder:
    +20% food/energy/production/culture/science in the city that builds it, and +25% effect from population

    +1 research for every population in the city (RAW, unaffected by slider and can't be reallocated)

    Human Hive:
    Free Perimeter Defense in all cities and defensive buildings are 25% more effective. Covert ops immunity for the city that builds it.

    New Terran Myth:
    +3 trade routes in this city
    +2 culture for all trade routes (internal and international)

    Deep Memory:
    Can pick two Tier 1 virtues for free. +5 culture

    Stations can fight back now. At first, their ability to fight back is limited to bombardment, but as the game progresses stations will pick up a missile rover garrison, a squad of 3 tacjets, improved city defenses (perimeter defense and missile batteries), and finally affinity boosts up to t2. These improvements occur at set points in the game, though stations that trade will get them earlier; additionally, trading partners with a station can donate energy to build up a station's armament, if they are falling behind. The exact order in which these occur depend on the resources that station normally provides; science stations tend to raise affinity levels faster and pick up the missile rover first, energy bases focus on tacjets and channel aid better, culture bases usually get defensive builds sooner, prod bases are well-rounded by lean towards units, and food/health bases have no particular bias.
    Stations can now offer Health as a perk of trading.
    Each individual station has (hardcoded) basic resources it offers to trading partners. This has nothing to do with the surrounding terrain, for instance Far Base One always trades Chitin, Jinsoku Labs always trades Resilin, Omoikane always trades Fruit.
    Every station has a unique backstory and quests, similar to the Far Base One quest; though not all quests activate immediately and not all require trading with the base. There are also generic station quests (such as the Harmony quest that pops a random station). Many of these quests are small things, like asking to connect a basic or strategic resource that combines with their natural stuff.
    Finally, aside from the resources and raw output of the station, each station offers a bonus ability. There are too many to list but some examples come to mind:
    - +10% strength for soldier-line units (Far Base One, must decline the quest to eliminate them)
    - +10% science/food/energy/production/culture/health (all the stations which solely provide those resources, except Palatine)
    - +2% food/production/culture yields for each hill and mountain a city works (Palatine, must complete quest to eliminate rival)
    - Units built here start with 10XP (Fort Barca, must complete quest and raise to Tier 3)
    - Borders expand 50% faster (Golden Bell Temple)
    - Purity and Supremacy basic affinity units gain 5% strength (Church of Light's Dawn)
    - Expeditions generate a small amount of energy (Keagungan)
    - +20 city HP (Camp Cascade, must raise to tier 3)
    - +1 Global Health for providing a Paddock resource (Camp Cascade, quest)
  2. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram Chieftain

    Sep 15, 2015
    I disagree about giving internal trade routes science and energy. I would make them generate less food and less production but I would not eliminate production. Science and energy are sponsor-wide yields. Energy is the currency for trade (therefore it must be exclusive to international trade routes) and science is spread most effectively IRL through trade of goods produced using scientific advancements. Suzanne Fielding would thrash you for concept of economics! ;p

    The production yield from internal trade routes could be tied to the production yield from improved resources in the opposite city. The food yield from internal trade routes should be tied to the food yield from improved resources + 1/2 the number of worked farm tiles + the number of worked Biowells in the opposite city with the source city getting 1/2 of that number if its total food production is less than the destination city, the destination city getting 1/3 of that number if its total food production is less than the source city, and the city with the most food getting less than 1/4 that number (1/4 is the max if its food is almost equal, 1/10 is the minimum limit as food difference approaches infinity). I like your idea of the food yield from trade routes tied to the types of plantations of the opposite cities not within their own borders but I think this should go with cooperating international trade routes (then food yield triples when allied). The food yield from trade should then be front-end estimated to the integer. Production is still not shared between sponsors.

    Strategic resources should be bought and sold in the old trade screen, which MUST make a comeback if strategic resources cannot be multiplied with trade. I like your idea of improved basic resources counting as existing for both cities. However, I still like the idea of allies sharing strategic resources and the means to get more from what they have. Therefore, allies should get 1 unit of each strategic resource for each improvement of the resource within one city that the other city has no access to within its own borders. Cooperating trade routes only get 1 unit max of these resources. In both cases, the city behaves as if there is an improved resource deposit (of 1) for each unit received from the trade route. That gives something from nothing but much, much less than now.

    Favors were a new feature to CivBE that shouldn't have been removed. Favors should get a new way to be spent, diplomatic agreements! Throwing in favors for the propose --> other player diplomatic/trade screen should sway their decisions proportional to the number of favors times the combined respect and fear numbers towards you while throwing anything else in uses vanilla defaults. Throwing favors for free in the trade screen (you offer x favors, they offer nothing) then gives 10 diplomatic capital per favor, a lot of respect, and the "graciously accept"/"you over payed" response. Diplomatic capital cannot be bought or sold so cashing in favors for DC gives you DC without reducing their DC. However, you (the human player) can never ask for nothing in return for returned favors because the AI player will always offer something up when you try to click agree (giving the "we cannot possibly ask for that much"/"we're no extortionists" response). Human player to human player trade just doesn't allow something for nothing.

    War Score should also be tied to the maximum the loser is allowed to give up but taking less should grant the winner favors when the peace treaty is accepted. The loser should always have a non-zero maximum amount willing to give up less than or equal to the maximum allowed. That means that whenever a peace is requested, it should be possible to grant whenever the winner asks for nothing in return. The winner then gets favors directly proportional to the War Score difference.

    I must disagree with you when it comes to miasma but I think trade units should be immune at Harmony 2 and Explorers at Harmony 3. Harmony 1 should grant -5 miasma damage to explorers.

    Someone is working on a mod to give Leader Traits disrespect for high scores (so they try harder to win) and I suggested that leader traits grant respect from things related to the leaders. Hutama then respects trade (more so with higher yields). Elodie then respects culture. Sochua and Kisch then respects production. Moon and Fielding then respect espionage. Ebner then respects diplomacy (and cashing in favors with any AI for DC). Alencar then respects military might. Kozlov then respects satellites. Barre then respects food. Duncan then respects naval size. Kavitha then respects territory size.

    If you are a modder, don't concern yourself with anything other than trade and diplomacy. If you are not, seek someone to help with the UI (where most of the changes we dislike were made to BE in RT).
  3. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

    Aug 22, 2012
    Personally I feel that sliders needlessly complicate the game with something that typically has optimal, though perhaps not obvious at first, patterns.

    I'd rather specialize simply with what buildings, virtues, and traits I choose.

    Making Miasma no longer damage would remove much of its power, and the threat of the new world.

    Aliens feel like an annoyance now because they are too weak to be a real threat aside the start of the game, where they always seem to swarm.

    Making Aliens more of a factor would go a long way to making the early game more interesting.

    Letting them attack and serve as a deterrent for Expeditions so that an escort is required, making them actually swarm cities when angered, and greatly reducing unit strength scaling would all help in this regard.

    Aliens just feel irrelevant for the most part, where they could be a really interesting mechanic.
  4. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram Chieftain

    Sep 15, 2015
    I like some of your other ideas but most mod makers are concerned about feature creep within mods. Also, each diplomatic trait can only grant 1 type of benefit, then merely increase that benefit with leveling up. It might be possible to give Élodie a culture to virtue bonus and a free virtue (with the percentage going up and ratio of free virtues to paid virtues going down) but even that might be impossible. I know that a single trait cannot buff trade routes AND city energy. Élodie might only be able to get free virtues OR increased culture.

    I am not sure if you are aware that sponsor unique buildings are possible like in Civ5. The code is in CivBE and fully functioning (according to my modding sources) just unused. New buildings are easy to add to CivBE already and buildings already have affinity thresholds to unlock (most are set to 0).
    You might "wonder what this has to with the price of tea in China" by now. Sponsors can be modded to get unique buildings unlocked with any tech and affinity level. Let's say Hutama can get some sort of trade harbor with high maintenance cost and 1 free trade route slot in the aquatic city in which it is built. Then his Leader Trait can get a nerf. Élodie might get affinity-unlocked cultural buildings and have her Diplomatic Trait changed to 1 free virtue for every 14/10/6 bought with culture. Giving her a Magicarp Power instead of being incredibly UP.
  5. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

    Aug 22, 2012
    Personally I modded in a 100% / 200% / 300% bonus culture in the capital as part of her trait, which works well enough.
  6. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars Chieftain

    Dec 10, 2014
    Honolulu, HI
    DC displaced Favors, but in my head they're essentially the same type of currency. What changed was the outlet and ways in which you could spend it. I hated favors. To me they were next to pointless because the AI was so unreasonable. I'm not giving you half of my science output for 2 Favors which you will NEVER return. I'm left with a bitter taste in my mouth on the subject, so I don't know how I feel about your proposal here.

    If I'm reading this right, it would essentially be just a name for getting DC out of normal Civ V style deal. Calling it "Offer Favor" or something along those lines. Else it starts to get complicated with a 2 step currency conversion.
  7. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

    Aug 22, 2012
    The issue with Favors in my opinion was that they were too easily acquired and too vague in their rewards - the AI basically seemed to treat them like Energy with equally irrational appraisals.

    If it was something like 1 favor being worth a huge energy deal or getting a faction to help in a war, and the AI actually helping in said war, it would have worked well.

    For favors to have functioned, what one could demand with them would need to be far more guaranteed and powerful.

    I could even see them being used to upgrade a relationship potentially, but they were a far cry from decent in their implementation.
  8. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram Chieftain

    Sep 15, 2015
    The way I see the leaders is this way: you send 6 super humans, an elder-immortal French aristocrat and an ageless eastern princess to a hostile planet, to be followed by 4 more super humans a few generations later; have fun!

    I cannot think of anything in vanilla BE or RT that was implemented nearly as well as it could have been! Most of the features when read off a vaguely descriptive list sound so great on paper that most would emphatically shout "shut up and take my money!" However, every single player notices how all the theoretically wonderful features don't live up to their potential. It is sad that most gamers will say "wait until an official DLC (patch, expansion, etc) and a discount when asked about CivBERT, or really any new release by any AAA game studio. The big companies keep losing customers to get grabbed up by smaller game studios. Unless 2K, EA, Ubisoft, etc want to exit the market in the long run, they better change their strategies, and quick!
  9. nimling

    nimling Chieftain

    Mar 25, 2007
    Trade between cities and villages is a thing in real life... Civilization 4 had internal routes that gave gold, albeit far less than international routes, and it worked just fine aside from TR spam being an easy way to REX.
  10. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram Chieftain

    Sep 15, 2015
    Yes, you read that right.

    Other leaders could then ask you for free stuff in return for favors (like in vanilla BE) granting a respect bonus and the favors if you accept and no punishment if you decline.

    You can then "Offer Favors" to help sway leaders into doing things, just like the Civ5 diplomatic trade screen, only with Favors instead. You could try bribing them with energy but it would usually be less effective. I say this because 5 science per turn and 10 energy per turn are both worth 1 point towards swaying opinions but 1 Favor is worth twice the amount of points equal to the respect + fear the other leader has for you. If the leader is on the fence, 10 energy per turn might do the trick. If you want the leader to break an alliance and declare war on the former ally, you might need exuberant (Hutama trade-route-spam with Strategic Networks) energy per turn to get the other leader to accept (causing immediate drop to neutral with the former ally, then drop to sanctioned in 5 turns, then declaration of war in 10 turns) or you might only need to cash-in the 10 or so Favors he gave you (in return for "helping him in his times of need" throughout the game) plus a few more new Favors offered.

    If you "Offer Favors" (whether they were returned (to even the score) or new (putting the other leader in a position of power over you) the exchange rate is the same) in return for nothing in the Civ5/vanilla CivBE trade screen, you get a flat respect bonus of 1 per favor and a 1-time DC infusion proportional to the game speed.

    Whenever the player with the highest War Score accepts "White Peace" (turning down what he "deserves" according to the score), the losing team accepts the treaty and offers 10% of the War Score difference in Favors (front-end estimated down to the integer). Doing so also reduces the Warmonger penalty (which should be returned) to the respect of the other leaders towards you.

    If you really want extra Diplomatic Capital and the respect of everyone around you (meaning you ARE Lena Ebner), you can do that complicated 2-part, 1-way currency exchange if you have a lot of energy to spare (because buying a Favor is twice as expensive as accepting the offer from an AI in need) but there would be few reasons to do so unless you want to rush the Beacon on Marathon speed and you know you will have more than enough energy per turn to activate it in 30 Turns. I previously suggested elsewhere that the Beacon should cost 100,000 energy (per turn) or 10 turns (whichever is later) on standard speed to achieve Contact. *I meant Quick!

    Trade between 2 nearby villages in the Ancient Era, 2 towns in the same kingdom in Medieval Europe, or 2 Italian cities in the early Modern Era are all equivalent because of regional differences and precious metal backing the exchanges. In the future, where the entire economy is based off electricity and all cities of a sponsor descended from 1 group of colonists, with internet access to telecommute and video-conference (or holo-conference), internal trade would be VASTLY DIFFERENT!!!

    During the Gold Rush, trade between Seattle and San Francisco was rare but all the earliest traders made fortunes off their trade more than all the miners combined. Now, Seattle and San Francisco are on the same Electrical Grid, have access to the same technology (most tech companies have offices in both cities), and share nearly-identical cultures (Seattle - Portland = San Francisco - San Diego). Trade is less lucrative per trader, and most trade is in seasonal & regional produce and parts & components built in high tech factories owned by the same companies. Hmm... Where have I seen that? Perhaps, Apples and Bolts from internal trade routes?!
  11. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

    Feb 11, 2005
    I don't get what the problem is with the routes. As it is, founding new cities later in the game has diminishing returns, for the same reason that later game techs and buildings may no longer be useful. TRs are a way to facilitate getting new cities up and working faster so they actually do something before the game ends. The basic BE's routes have already been changed. You cannot adjust direction at all - all yields are greater towards the smaller cities. Concentrating power is limited - you can kind of boost a big city's hammer output by 50% if you centralize all your routes there, but it's got to have a pretty good output already. Or have a bunch of powerful hammer cities concentrating into a new small city for a Wonder, perhaps - that's a plausible simulation result. Build a new city to house a new Civ project with effort coming in from all over. That's realistic, right?

    You have to have to get. If you don't manage your tile outputs, your TRs don't get anything.

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