Changes to Universal Suffrage
- Thread starter Ramius75
- Start date
rcoutme
Emperor
The "Wonder" is Universal Suffrage, i.e. voting, not Emacipation Proclamation. Why would all "slave" units switch?
Gengis Khan
Deity
Why would anyone want their slaves to switch? I'd never build it.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
I disagree. First, historically they are totally unrelated. Second, why would anyone want a wonder that massively decreased his income.
Gengis Khan said:
This will enable the slave to work as par the same ability of the workers in your nation. Con, u have to pay them, lol.
Its true, they r totally unrelated. But as there r no ambolishment act event in the game, it will be politically and historical correct to include such event into the Universal suffrage
. Its really weird to see so many slaves running around even after universal suffrage was built.Ramius
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
Wouldn't it make more sense to add a Wonder if you want that effect rather than tacking the effect on something unrelated (I wouldn't)?
Historically, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the south of the US during the Civil War. Lincoln didn't free the slaves in the North with that act.
BTW, a free worker is infinitely more productive per dollar than one that you pay for.
Historically, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the south of the US during the Civil War. Lincoln didn't free the slaves in the North with that act.
BTW, a free worker is infinitely more productive per dollar than one that you pay for.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
If I were to put a change to slavery into the game, it's be the chance for slave revolts.
Absolutely, and it might as well be Emancipation Proclamation.warpstorm said:
That's true, but historically, the Hoover Dam didn't supply electrical power to every city on the continent, either. The game-effect doesn't have to exactly match the real-life historical effect (heck, look at the Pyramids
), as long as it's somewhat related, people would understand. Very true. Having workers that work faster is not nearly enough incentive when you add in the extra expense of paying maintenance.
Slave revolts is a cool idea - how would it be implemented?
sealman
Hater of Babylonians
I would never build the wonder if it had this effect. At the stage in the game when you can biuld it, the only thing my workers are doing is cleaning up polution and as far as I am concerned 2 free workers do a better job than 1 paid worker.
But slavery is already in the game! In vanilla Civ 3, you can capture enemy workers and make them work for you (for free), and Conquests added military units with the enslave ability. Firaxis obviously decided they could handle any 'political fallout.'Moss321 said:
#Ramius75 said:
Id say the hypocrisy is that you can have a democracy *before* [edit] Universal Suffrage. The so-called 'advanced' representative governments of the ancient age (Greece and Rome) did not did the votes to women or slaves, and thus was not very representative at all. I would like to see an Emancipation Proclamation-type wonder, or the possibility of slave revolts though...
AdHHH said:
All things are relative: the governments of Greece and Rome were far more representative than nations ruled by despotism or monarchy. Even if only a small percentage of the population could vote, it was still a fundamentally different form a government than one person having complete authority. Just because they don't live up to our modern standards doesn't mean they weren't advanced for their day.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
Not only that, but as was pointed out elsewhere here a little bit ago, the word 'democracy' was created to describe the governmental system of Athens. It's true it was a limited democracy--it was limited to citizens. It's unfortunate that women and slaves weren't allowed to be citizens, and it's easy for us to sit here in the 21st century and condemn the Athenians for that, but the fact remains that their system was very progressive at the time.
As for the topic of the thread itself, I have to agree that the connection between emancipaton and voting rights is rather tenuous. Instead of simply altering Univeral Suffrage so that it now makes you pay for all those captured workers, I think it would be far better if they simply expanded and improved the whole slavery system, giving it benefits and drawbacks, then made a different Industrial-era Wonder (the obvious choice would be 'Emancipation Proclamation') to put an end to it. If they're going to do it anyway, they might as well do it right instead of just tacking it on to some other Wonder that's not really relevant.
As for the topic of the thread itself, I have to agree that the connection between emancipaton and voting rights is rather tenuous. Instead of simply altering Univeral Suffrage so that it now makes you pay for all those captured workers, I think it would be far better if they simply expanded and improved the whole slavery system, giving it benefits and drawbacks, then made a different Industrial-era Wonder (the obvious choice would be 'Emancipation Proclamation') to put an end to it. If they're going to do it anyway, they might as well do it right instead of just tacking it on to some other Wonder that's not really relevant.
Judgement: Point taken, but in any despotism/monarchy there would be individuals with the ability to influence the leader, and thus they are to some extent within the sphere of influence, although yes they could not legislate of their own accord, or propose laws.
Denarr
Warlord
I guess that it should be pointed out that the abolition of slavery didn't stop 'slavery'.
Criminals were still required to work for free. Most prisons had people harvesting crops, building roads, repairing buildings...(basically everything a Civ Worker does) at no cost, other than what would normally have been paid to the slaves' overseers, now called prison guards.
Universal Sufferage (did you read the Civilopoedia?) granted an equal say to women, which ended up reducing the discontent in nearly half the population.
Emancipation...
Correction: The Equal Rights Amendments ...granted equal rights to minorities, including voting.
Sure, these days, some prisoners can earn (some) money by working, but that is part of the cost of jails and police houses.
Criminals were still required to work for free. Most prisons had people harvesting crops, building roads, repairing buildings...(basically everything a Civ Worker does) at no cost, other than what would normally have been paid to the slaves' overseers, now called prison guards.
Universal Sufferage (did you read the Civilopoedia?) granted an equal say to women, which ended up reducing the discontent in nearly half the population.
Emancipation...
Correction: The Equal Rights Amendments ...granted equal rights to minorities, including voting.Sure, these days, some prisoners can earn (some) money by working, but that is part of the cost of jails and police houses.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
OK, my thoughts are that, in Civ4, you should have a Wonder called 'Emancipation' Small Wonder, which will convert all of YOUR slaves (and ONLY your slaves) to ordinary workers.
The benefits of such a system are:
1) Your international standing with other nations that have 'emancipation' will rise greatly.
2) In line with WS's suggestion. The chance of a slave revolt obviously drops to zero. Plus, your rate of assimilation of foreign nationals increases.
The downside, obviously, is that you have no slaves and have to pay for all of your worker jobs
! Its all about swings and roundabouts, in my opinion!
The alternative, of course, is to make both emancipation levels and sufferage levels part of Social Engineering-with the ability to set the levels from 0-100% in each case. Perhaps with the government type limiting the absolute minimum and maximum levels you can set!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
The benefits of such a system are:
1) Your international standing with other nations that have 'emancipation' will rise greatly.
2) In line with WS's suggestion. The chance of a slave revolt obviously drops to zero. Plus, your rate of assimilation of foreign nationals increases.
The downside, obviously, is that you have no slaves and have to pay for all of your worker jobs
! Its all about swings and roundabouts, in my opinion!The alternative, of course, is to make both emancipation levels and sufferage levels part of Social Engineering-with the ability to set the levels from 0-100% in each case. Perhaps with the government type limiting the absolute minimum and maximum levels you can set!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
sealman
Hater of Babylonians
Denarr:
The Emancipation Proclamation did not grant equal rights or voting rights to slaves. It only freed slaves in the states that were in rebellion. It was a useless proclamation whose only intent was to cause an slave uprising in the South.
Equal and voting rights to the slaves was still a long way off.
The Emancipation Proclamation did not grant equal rights or voting rights to slaves. It only freed slaves in the states that were in rebellion. It was a useless proclamation whose only intent was to cause an slave uprising in the South.
Equal and voting rights to the slaves was still a long way off.
Denarr
Warlord
sealman said:
Thanks for the correction...I was thinking of the equal rights amendments...so difficult to concentrate with a bunch of crazy people lurking about. 
I thought the intent of the Emancipation Proclamation was to secure more votes in the Presidential Election for Lincoln. Too bad I no longer have the book.
