Changes to UUs/UBs (includes new civs)

[The Capo]

UUs/UBs DISCUSSION THREAD​

This thread is to discuss the changes to both added and new UUs and UBs. This can include anything from simply their names, to their traits/features, or even discussing a complete change in a UU and UB for either a new civ or an existing civ.

 

[The Capo]

CURRENT CHANGES​

Here are the current changes to UUs in Diplomacy II:



Here are the current changes to UBs in Diplomacy II:

 

[AbsintheRed]

I will get back here soon with a summarized UU and UB list

 

[Xyth]

There was discussion in the old thread of changing the Polynesian UU to the Waka. Personally I think this is a highly commendable idea, especially since the discovery of an attractive unit graphic in Total Realism that could be used. As part Maori I am also highly biased

From memory I believe that it being a Trireme replacement was the preferred option, giving it ocean going capabilities was completely ruled out, and giving it the ability to sail oceans with a % chance of loss would be awesome but probably involve enabling CPU-stressing Python callbacks (to be avoided).

Is this still a possibility and if so, any good suggestions?

 

[The Capo]

There was discussion in the old thread of changing the Polynesian UU to the Waka. Personally I think this is a highly commendable idea, especially since the discovery of an attractive unit graphic in Total Realism that could be used. As part Maori I am also highly biased

From memory I believe that it being a Trireme replacement was the preferred option, giving it ocean going capabilities was completely ruled out, and giving it the ability to sail oceans with a % chance of loss would be awesome but probably involve enabling CPU-stressing Python callbacks (to be avoided).

Is this still a possibility and if so, any good suggestions?

If we want to go in this direction, I would say make it a Trireme that could carry 2 units, has an extra move and ignores ZOC. That is as far as I am willing to go, and honestly that is pretty strong.

The only problem I have with that is that it would basically make the Galley worthless to build for the Polynesians.

 

[AbsintheRed]

So no chance for my idea?
Adding the good old 30% chance from previous civs to sink in ocean squares would be awesome.
You sure this have to be done in python?

 

[The Capo]

That would definitely be cool, but yeah I'm pretty sure it would have to be done in python, and even then I'm not sure it would look so nice. I don't think the camera would go to it and it would "sink" (which would be the best way to go about it), I think it would just disappear and there would be notification or something.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and remember the experience with the Slaves, if I put 30% in it won't necessarily mean 30%.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The camera don't zoom either if you find a new resource, or complete a building and the next one is already on your building queue, so I wouldn't mind at all if there is only a notification.
Also we can test out the percentage, how much do you have to put in to get at about 30% ingame.

So the only concern for me is the python thing, not sure how often and how many python callbacks would we need for something like that.
And how slower the game would be if we implement this feature...

 

[The Capo]

The camera don't zoom either if you find a new resource, or complete a building and the next one is already on your building queue, so I wouldn't mind at all if there is only a notification.
Also we can test out the percentage, how much do you have to put in to get at about 30% ingame.

So the only concern for me is the python thing, not sure how often and how many python callbacks would we need for something like that.
And how slower the game would be if we implement this feature...

AFAIK, if it is for one type of units it will only fire when that unit is out on the ocean. So it would only have a callback when the Waka (or whatever we're going to call it) is on an ocean square, which shouldn't be that often to be honest. However, I'm not sure if the simple amount of callbacks is the problem. It might require a lot of code or a function that has to "do" a lot of things. I'll put in a request and figure this out.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Awesome, thank you!
Let's hope The_J or someone else can figure this out...

 

[The Capo]

I edited the names and stuff for the UUs (so now the Greek UU is called a Hoplite, and not a Phalanx). I also wanted to get in the new stats, so now might be a good time to post those changes you are suggesting. I gotta go in a couple of hours and I'm putting in the Flavian Amphitheatre now, so if you get it up quickly enough, and it looks good then maybe I can get everything updated.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Unfortunatly I have to go in a few minutes, I can only post them around midnight. About 4-5 PM your timezone...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Ok, I'm back early but just for about half on hour or so. Still, you can expect the list before I leave again

 

[AbsintheRed]

Huhh, here is the first round, Now i wrote all the bonuses down, it will be easier for you to add this way.
Notes: FS = first strike, WC = withdrawal chance, DB = defensive bonus, FA = flank attack

• Axeman: (35, 5, 1) - 50% vs melee
• Maccabee (Israel's Axeman): (35, 5, 1) - 50% vs melee, starts with City Raider I - there was an idea to make these Swordsman replacements instead...
• Immortal (Persian Axeman): (35, 5, 1) - +1 FS, starts with March - note that the civilopedia entry is wrong
  
  [*]Cuirassier: (100, 12, 2) - immune to FS, 15% WC, no DB, FA (Cannon, Trebuchet, Catapult)
• Huszar Cavalry (Hungary's Cuirassier): (100, 12, 2) - 1 FS, immune to FS, 25% WC, no DB, starts with Commando, Sentry, FA (Cannon, Trebuchet, Catapult)
  
  [*]Infantry (140, 20, 1) - +25% vs gunpowder units
• Viet Cong (Vietnam's Infantry): (140, 20, 1) - +25% vs gunpowder units, starts with Woodsman II
  
  [*]Knight (90, 10, 2) - Immune to FS, FA (Catapult, Trebuchet), no DB
• Ansar Warrior (Arabian Knight): (90, 10, 2) - Immune to FS, FA (Catapult, Trebuchet), no DB, +1-2 FS or start with Drill II, +25% vs melee
• Turkoman Cavalry (Timurid Knight): (90, 10, 2) - Immune to FS, FA (Catapult, Trebuchet), no DB, +50% city attack
• Tarkan (Hun Knight): (90, 10, 2) - Immune to FS, FA (Catapult, Trebuchet), no DB, no iron required, starts with Blitz/Leadership - I would still go with War Elephant replacement, but this isn't bad either...
• Carolingian Paladin (Frankish Knight): (90, 10, 2) - Immune to FS, FA (Catapult, Trebuchet), no DB, starts with Blitz/Leadership, slightly earlier tech (but not as early as Theology)
• Catapracht (Byzantine Knight): (100, 12, 2) - FA (Catapult, Trebuchet), no DB - I only slightly increased cost from 90 to 100
  
  [*]Longbowman (50, 6, 1) - 1 FS, +25% city defence, +25% hills defence
• Medjay Longbowman (Nubian Longbowman): (50, 7, 1) - 1 FS, +25% city defence, +25% hills defence
  
  [*]Swordsman: (40, 6, 1) - +10% city attack, requires iron
• Gallic Warrior (Celtic Swordsman): (40, 6, 1) - +10% city attack, starts with Guerilla I, +25% gold from pillaging, requires iron or copper
• Koa (Polynesian Swordsman): (40, 6, 1) - no iron required, starts with Ampibious - If we can find something great for Waka we can drop this
• Praetorian (Roman Swordsman): (40, 7, 1) or (55, 8, 1) - can build roads
  
  [*]War Elephant: (60, 8, 1) - +50% vs mounted, no DB
• Ballista Elephant (Khmer's War Elephant): (60, 8, 1) - +50% vs mounted, targets mounted first, +25% vs archery
  
  [*]Warrior: (15, 2, 1) - +25% city defence
• Quechua (Incan Warrior): (15, 2, 1) - +25% city defence, starts with Combat I, +50% attack vs archery, +100% defence vs archery

Also, I would add oil requirement for Mechanized Infantry
I know you don't really want to change Quecha and Praetorian, but these are only slight changes, and would be -really- good for overall balance


EDIT: Also don't forget the name changes, Legionary, Hoplite, Men-at-arms, Light and Heavy Infantry

 

[The Capo]

A couple of questions:

1) These are your suggestions, correct? The reason I ask is because I don't remember off-hand what each unit has.

2) EDIT: I'm wrong about what I said before.

EDIT 2: You forgot the Iroquois Mohawk Warrior.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yes, these are the suggestions I collected from everyone, and modified where I felt it's needed. I consider these balanced more or less, but of course we have to test ingame to find out...

I did not forget the Mohawk Warrior, i just think it's good the way you added them in the last playtest


EDIT: alright, I'm making an xcl table too, it will be easier to look through that way

 

[Xyth]

Regarding the chance of sinking on ocean tiles:

It is a great idea but it is not worth the performance hit. The way it works is this:

Numerous functions are exposed to Python but each one runs slower with Python 'attached' than it would without. This is due to the need to parse the code, convert variables etc. Most of the time the difference is tiny and unnoticeable but there are certain functions that are called extremely often and all this adds up. In BTS many of the Python Callbacks that are used many times are disabled by default and need to be switched on by the modder.

In the case of our waka, we would need to enable the Python Callback for the routine that handles whether a unit can move into a tile and for the one that handles units actually moving. As you can imagine these are called thousands of times in a single turn, as they are used by the AI to figure out where and how to move it's units.

Thus is if we enable Python access to these routines (a performance hit all by itself) and then on top of that add code for our waka as well... it's going to be a big slowdown because of a single unique unit.

If we really did want it or something similar we would need to do it with the SDK. Python is best used for one-time events such as a unit, building or city being built, tech discovered, cultural growth, start of a player's turn, stuff like that.

 

[The Capo]

Looks pretty good to me, just a few things though:

1) I am going to assume that we are including the base-unit's abilities too? So in the case of the Immortal it should be 50% v. Melee, +1 FS, and starts with march?

2) For the Carolignian Paladin are you suggesting it starts with both blitz and leadership or are you saying it shoudl just get one of those. I'm personally leaning towards only giving it Leadership. On the same note, I'd give the Tarkan only Blitz.

3) Is the Gallic Warrior's pillaging bonus doable in XML? And don't you think 25% is a bit too modest for this otherwise crappy UU? Maybe 50%?

4) For the Legionary, I think I'll stick with the 8 strength and make it more expensive, the building of roads is only slightly helpful.

5) I'm still a bit iffy on altering the Quechua, but my argument that it is really too early to make much of an effect could be used for both sides of the debate. So I suppose I could temporarily change it for the next playtest.

 

[The Capo]

Well, the alternative to using python and giving it that ability is to give it an extra move and allowing to carry a couple of units.

Or allowing it to either have an extra move OR carry two units AND give it the ability to ignore ZOC. That way you could explore a bit more.

 

[Xyth]

Huszar Cavalry (Hungary's Cuirassier): (100, 12, 2) - 1 FS, immune to FS, 25% WC, no DB, starts with Commando, Sentry, FA (Cannon, Trebuchet, Catapult)

My suggestion here is to give them a +50% attack bonus against gunpowder units. Huszar are renown for the tactic of 'late concentration': charging widespread and moving randomly and then collapsing into a tight formation at the last moment. This was extremely effective against muskets and rifles as it is much harder to hit targets that are all over the place.

This would make them stronger against cities as well though so I think a -25% city attack should be added to balance this. In summary:

Huszar
• Same strength, move and cost
• +50% attack vs Gunpowder units
• -25% city attack
• maybe some extra withdraw chance as well