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Changing Cannons from Units to Professions [ACCEPTED]

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Jan 8, 2020.

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Should Cannons be changed from Units to Professions?

  1. Yes, I like that idea. It is more realistic and consistent to the rest of the military system.

    77.8%
  2. No, I do not like that idea. I prefer to be able to build Cannons as I can do now.

    22.2%
  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We have the equipment as well. (e.g Cannons, Blades or whatever)
    And the Professions will need equpipment of course.

    That is true but it was also not just one single cannon that would fight together with e.g. an infantery regiment (e.g. 50) against another army.
    It was a couple (e.g. 8) of them, also usually called an artillery regiment.

    In later centuries of course "regiments" were much bigger and were combined of many different batallions of different troops.

    I am not sure what we should deal with. :dunno:

    But yes, it is a simplification - just as building an artillery regiment by a carpenter was a heavy simplification.
    Games need to simplify because otherwise nobody would play them if they would feel like complex reality.

    Artillery Professions will be able to bombard just as Artillery Units can now. :thumbsup:
    The only real difference will be equipping as a Profession instead of "Building / Hurrying" a Unit (by Carpenter).
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    I always envisioned cannon to be more like an artillery battery
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery
    After all troop strength and cannons in the Colonies never have been that high and even in major engagements the numbers were rather small compared to european campaigns.
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    True, but in modern terms infantery sizes of colonial age would also be at most a "batallions" or a "troop" only.
    The terms were changed / mixed a lot over the centuries because military numbers increased dramatically.

    That is why we avoided to use such terms as "regiment", "batallion", "troop" ....

    Exactly. :thumbsup:

    But it still was not only 1 Artillery (Cannon) vs. 50 Infantery (Men).
    It would not have been worth the effort to bring the 1 cannon to the battle.

    If cannons were fielded, there were at least a couple of them.
    The normal number was somewhere between 6 to 12. (in rare case only 4)

    We would have the same issue in numbers with Fur Trappers and Cotton Planters. (and many other Professions as well)
    e.g. Cotton was very work intensive and required work force was quite large.

    But as already said, games need to simplify. :dunno:
    We cannot try to emulate all the exact numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  4. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    First of all, should it be "cannon" or "artillery"? The first is used in this thread, the latter is what the game is currently using.

    Garrison seems to match the game settings better than light because light artillery can also be read as "field artillery", in which case it's a much more mobile kind of cannons, which are intended to be moved to the battlefield and shoot at enemy soldiers. The current light artillery isn't really intended to be moved out of the colonies.
     
  5. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    I assume for the moment it doesn't matter - if a tech tree will ever be implemented or early and late "artillery" then it becomes more important.
     
  6. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    I think we should allow ourselves to assume that we'll eventually get a tech tree. Perhaps it's just my optimistic bias though :p

    Here's another idea: some BTS mods have immobile units. I think that AND2 and\or RI has cannon turrets, and this is perhaps something to consider for WTP.
     
  7. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    We have DOMAIN_IMMOBILE in the dll. It's just that none of the units actually use it. A quick search in the source code indicates that the dll actually checks for this domain when assigning movement points and stuff. Looks good regarding an implementation because it's possible that it's an xml only change. One thing to keep in mind is that the domain comes from CvUnitInfo, not the profession. Changing a profession will not change the domain, though we could mod CvUnit::getDomainType() to change that if we really want to do so.
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    You are correct - I was misusing the terms. :)
    (In German we usually talk about "Kannonen".)
     
  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I have seen "DOMAIN_IMMOBILE" being used several times in the code.
    I am not sure however that it all works as intended since simply no "immobile Unit" ever existed in Civ4Col.

    I am also not sure that having "immobile Units" is really interesting or could be used purposely in Civ4Col. :dunno:

    If anybody has a good game concept for that, go ahead and suggest it. :)
    (Please create a new feature thread for it though because it would be a new feature to discuss.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  10. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    This talk about immobile cannons makes me wonder if cannons really should be a profession. If we keep them as produced units, but immobile, meaning defense only and then add a cannon handler profession (we will make a proper name later), which has a cargo slot. This slot can then load a cannon and then we use another feature I once proposed (but can't find right now), which allows units to grant a promotion when in a cargo slot. This promotion can then grant various abilities to the handlers. Different kind of cannons can give different promotions.

    The result would be cannons will become defensive units, but they turn into attacking units when merged together with a colonist (which may or may not require horses to pull the cannons). Their stats could also change when being moved into the battlefield vs stationary in a colony.

    Is this a path for cannons, which would be interesting for the gameplay?
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Sounds way too difficult for me and like it has no benefit considering gameplay or consistency or anything else I can imagine.
    Before we do something like "cannon handler profession" with a cannon slot to carry cannons around, we rather do nothing at all considering Artillery / Cannons.

    Not for me, it adds a tedious game mechanic I would not like.
    Also AI concept would most likely be complicated - but probably doable of course with a lot of effort.

    I still see no benefits at all to have Professions with Cargo Slots. (At least not for WTP - maybe in a Mod-Mod though.)
    It is neither needed (for any feature we discussed) nor does it sound like a reasonable consistent game mechanic if we already have e.g. "Wagon Trains".

    The current concept is much simpler, kills the exploit to build Land military and also consistent with equipping all the rest of the Miliary Land Professions.
    Having a "Carry Professions" for Immobile Cannons, is neither simple nor is it consistent with anything we have.
    (It even introduces 2 completely new concepts that are tedious to use, are needed nowhere else and do not make game play any better.)

    ---------

    Do we (the team) want to change Artillery Units to Artillery Professions in Release 2.8?
    Do we not like the idea to change Artillery Units to Artillery Professions at all?
    Are we currently simply not sure and leave everything as it is?

    Because if we do not know now or do not want it, Schmiddie definitely does not need to start preparing anything.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  12. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    I still like the idea of changing the two main artillery units to professions. It is simple and fits with the military system
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Me too. :thumbsup:
     
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  14. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    I third that thought. I /really/ dont want this to stall
     
  15. cammcken

    cammcken Warlord

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    My only concern is that changing cannons would remove one military "pathway". Currently, cannon units don't cost population, so colonies with highly developed industry (ore production lines and hammers production) but struggling with population growth would more likely use cannons in their military. Conversely, a country with great population growth but poor industry might choose to field more colonial militia. The current system offers two alternate "pathways" — high material cost / low manpower cost vs. low material cost / high manpower cost — and it's up to the player to decide which way is better given their situation. If cannon units require population, then all military has the same manpower cost, so the question of whether or not to use cannons is decided entirely by their strategic value and cost (and low population colonies are out of luck).

    In other words, I'm afraid this change will push everyone to a single army composition instead of alternate compositions that change depending on situation (a new game might put you in a different situation). But realism is still more important to me than replayability, so if you think the change is worth it then go for it.
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    That is exactly one of the purposes of this change (at least for me).
    Because I consider "Buying / Hurrying" of Land Military without population cost (especially in WOI) an exploit.

    Cannons still have their purpose because they can bombard defenses of a city.
    But if we do the "big military overhaul" already partially discussed in some post and internally, they will get even more purpose.

    The "Big Military Overhaul" however is a completely different topic (that requires its own discussion thread) at some point when we are ready for it.
    We need to start building things step by step.
     
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  17. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    FYI: "Big Military Overhaul" <- This is probably my most wanted feature (along with a tech tree \ civics)
     
  18. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Ok guys, it seems that we - the team - still agree on this. :)
    Let us just give it a try in Release 2.8. :thumbsup:
     
  19. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    It may be worth including a third immobile cannon that is not a population unit but can only be used for city defence (as it cannot move from the location it was built) This of course could be exploited in the current way by having a impenetrable mega city bristling with cannons, but it would have far less utility in this exploit as it would only protect 'that city' rather than a rapacious hoard of cannons reducing all to dust in their path.

    They would be similar to how a colonist can pick up guns laying around to defend themselves when the town is attacked (is this a thing or is this just some kind of dream I had) but they would be essentially big emplacements manned by a not full time local militia (who drill with them on the weekends) rather than engineers who are knowledgeable in not only use but also transportation of cannons and powder, etc. (the professional field artillerists[new word because lazy])
     

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