[BTS] Charismatic. strategies? Best leader to play for this?

[Gumbolt]

I am trying to refine my strategy to have high level units that are well promoted using the Charasmatic trait.

So the basics.
Buildings
Barracks + 3xp.
Stables +2xp
Dry docks +4xp

Civics
Theocracy +2xp with cities that have your religion.
Vassalage +2xp for new units.

Great generals settled
+2xp for each settled great general.

Wonders
West Point +4xp
Heroic Epic + 100% production military units.
Great wall + 100% chance of Great Generals in your borders. (Does this stack with Imp trait?)

Best supporting traits?
Aggressive melee/gunpowder units start with C1 promo.
Imperialist - +100% chance of great general appearance. (Options for super medics and settled +2xp.)
Protective - Archery and gunpowder units free CG1 and drill 1.

Other traits would help more on gamplay such as faster granaries.

Which leaders have Cha?
Boudica Cha/Agg - Has Gallic Warrior UU - start with Guerilla 1 promo. Plus aggressive promo + C1.
Brennus Cha/Spiritual - Has Gallic Warrior UU - start with Guerilla 1 promo. Plus aggressive promo + C1.Washington ...................
Churchill Cha/Pro - Has Redcoats.
Cyrus Cha/Imp - Immortals
Degaulle Cha/ind - 2mp musketeer
Hannibal Cha/Fin - Numidian Cavalry
Napolean Cha/Org - 2mp Musketeer
Washington Cha/Exp. Late UU/UB.


Of the above 3 start with supporting military traits.
Cyrus has imp for faster great general creation. Super strong UU early game.
Celts with aggresive. Less xp required for medic on melee units 3. Weak starting techs.
Churchill with protective units.
Degaulle would build wonders faster such as Westpoint..

Promotions arrive at 2xp/4xp/8xp/13xp/20xp/28xp.

So for mounted units you can get +5xp with barracks and stables.
With civic +4xp.
2 settled generals give +4xp.
West point would need 800 hammers for +4xp.
That would give 17xp. So C4 cuirs? With 1-2 combat wins C5
More likely 13xp as I think most won't build west point.

In terms of basic game play I would think any level 4 unit with CR3 or C3 on mounted would do really well. C2 with formation works well on mounted. So maybe sweet spot for xp is 8xp/13xp once built? In my games Ai generally gets 2-3 promos and have settled GG for xp.

Strategy - Options:

1st general for super medic.
Settle for XP.
Do you skip barracks or stables for speed on warfare.
West Point in HE city with GE?
Is it better to have more Great general units or to settle?
Capturing cities with settled GG could also be good.
Trapping ai scouts to farm xp for catapults/treb and cannons.

Any thoughts on your best strategy tips. Or best leader on this?

 

[AcaMetis]

Great wall + 100% chance of Great Generals in your borders. (Does this stack with Imp trait?)

Yes.

As for the best leader, realistically whichever leader is the best at teching and/or getting to the military breakout techs. If you've got a choice between Combat 4 Cuirs and Combat 2/3 Cavs the latter is probably going to do better.

 

[Fippy]

I'd say with Cyrus you should look at warlords promo from GG.
Can still create a super medic with 20 shared xp but other units also benefit.

 

[Gumbolt]

Splitting GG xp is not a bad idea. Think 13xp would get a supermedic. Maybe less with c1 from melee.

My main issue with Celts is early techs. Hunting is very start based useful. Most maps likely useless.

I do like Hannibal for financial but his uu is only str5.

Case of what to do after 2-3 GG. Rng can be a killer.

 

[Fool's Gold]

So this is pure theorycrafting at Noble difficulty on my part, and it's probably not what you asked for, but I'm thinking:

• If you're going for balls-to-the-wall total warfare and you're in Vassalage / Theocracy / Slavery, you can whip out Level 3 units from newly-captured cities without needing to invest into Barracks or Stables since you only need 4 XP with CHA. 40 for a missionary from an established city (which can travel along with your stack even if you're warring with 2 units) is probably more efficient than 50 / 60 for Barracks / Stables respectively in a newly-captured one. Plus between state religion, CHA and maybe investing 30 for a Monument (or capturing Stonehenge), you should have a higher cap to whip captured cities even harder. This means that you'll have more fodder available to continue the war or garrison your captured cities, which allows you to conserve your original stack of highly-promoted troops (especially if you're doing it right and the front line has moved further away from your original unit pumps).
  • Wonders that might help with this strategy (not sure if it's viable, but hey): Stonehenge for Monuments (and Great Prophet points), Oracle if you think you can gamble for Feudalism (and more Great Prophet points), and bulbing Theology with the Great Prophet from these two so that you can get Theocracy and a religion. This might be a reason to pick De Gaulle for IND, although the French don't start with Mysticism.
• You won't have Great Generals for your first war. I guess if you wait until Vassalage / Theocracy, you can get Level 4 mounted units and build Heroic Epic peacefully (but you could also just get one unit to Level 4 by farming Barbs for the latter), but warring with Knights might be too much of a detour (Metal Casting - Machinery - Guilds) on your way to Cuirassiers? So maybe you go to war early with your mounted UU or Horse Archers first and tech towards Feudalism, Theology and Literature after. Cyrus seems like a good choice, what with Immortals and all.
• You can build 2 National Wonders per city, but I've seen it said on the forums that West Point in the Heroic Epic city is a waste of at the time when you should be preparing your invasion force. I suppose if you reach Military Tradition before Gunpowder... you're probably building Horse Archers and saving for upgrades? But if you're hell-bent on WP, then I guess that's a way to hit the 13 XP mark if you don't feel confident in getting more than 1 GG in early wars. (If Hannibal's Numidian Cavalry retain the free Flanking I after their upgrade, that's one factor in his favour - the other being FIN, so you can save more easily and tech faster.)

Let me know if I'm making incorrect assumptions or conclusions here, I'm hoping to learn too.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

When playing around with high-level xp, consider the super-duper medic: a melee unit with woodsman iii gives an additional bonus to healing units on the same tile as the healer, which stacks with heal i, ii, and iii (only stacks if all promotions are on the same unit!).

Mostly out of reach except for Monty's Jaguars (the secret benefit to that unit, with its combat 1 + woodsman 1), or Boudica (aggressive charismatic). But if you are piling on the xp, you can also work towards it by using gg 1 to give the regular medic promotion, and then gg2 to give 10xp to that unit alongside another unit. If you pick up a woodsman 2 unit in early game barb defense, this can help make it happen.

Along the same lines, you can get a sub-super medic with woodsman iii + medic 1, *without using a gg*. Slightly less healing than a medic iii unit, and no adjacent-tile healing; takes only 10xp for Monty's Jaguars(!!!!!), 13xp to get the requisite 4 promotions for Boudica, 17xp for an aggressive but non-charismatic leader, or 26xp for a non-agg non-char leader (good luck with that eithout using a gg!)

Re: Imperialistic stacking with Great Wall, it additively stacks as with all other in-game multipliers. Some early discussions state that it *multiplies* the benefit of the Great Wall, but that is false. However, there is a hidden +100% multiplier for gg creation inside your borders, even without the Great Wall.

So, inside borders adds +100%, Great Wall adds 100%, and imperialistic adds 100% = 4x gg creation inside your borders if you are Imperialistic with Great Wall.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Other unrelated notes - if you play next to Ghengis Khan or Cyrus, or other war monger Imp leaders, they might pack in some gg's in their own cities, which you can then take over and add in your own.

And if you are really just messing around, you can gift a target city to an AI, gift them a bunch of scouts on a tile in that city with only 1 exit point (ie blocked by mountains or ocean), then immediately declare war, take the city same turn with horse archers, block the scouts from escaping, and then every turn attack the scouts with seige, bothe giving yourself xp on those units, as well as building gg points (could be gg points x4, if you are Imp with Great wall, per above, because these battles are now happening inside your own borders!)

 

[Gumbolt]

I actually thought it was 2 national wonders per city. Edited above.

My ambition here is to check my GG and overall promotion strategy is good and if there is an opportunity with Cha to do something interesting. I figure you would need a GE to make.West Point. 17xp units out door would be fun. It makes first attack odds closer to 70-80% for cuirs. ALbeit 30% is my usual odds. I normally whip so many units it barely matters on immortal.

Just trying to see what everyone does.Was thinking of creating an always war game to test some of these xp strategies.

 

[coanda]

It's very niche, but I recall having fun once with Boudica using Commando mass production.

Commando is normally a pretty weak promotion, because you can't get very many of them. Either you keep your commando-promoted units with the rest of your stack, in which case they might as well not have Commando. Or you split them off separately, in which case you've neatly separated out a few of your most valuable units into an isolated group where the enemy can easily swarm them. But when you can make one of them every turn, some options start opening up that wouldn't normally be worth considering.

Of course, you have to be playing as an AGG/CHA leader (i.e., Boudica). And you need to settle a few Great Generals in a city with tremendous production potential. And you need to get up to Military Science tech. And you need to be using Melee or Gunpowder units, which means 1-move units except for some super late-game options. And you still have to separate those units out from the ones produced by your other cities. So it's not exactly a game-breaking strategy, just a bit of flair that is an unusual option.

 

[drewisfat]

I think you'd always be better served attaching as opposed to settling, especially with CHA where unusual options like combat V or woody 3 medics present themselves.

 

[sampsa]

The main issue with these tactics is that xp is not worth that much. I think cr3-siege makes quite a difference, but other than that... Maybe march on 2-movers or commando, like coanda mentioned. I have no idea how many lvls you need to get them though.

 

[Lennier]

Agg leaders get barracks and dry docks at discount, so another point in Boudica’s favor.

[Edited to change "Ahh" to "Agg."]

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

It's very niche, but I recall having fun once with Boudica using Commando mass production.

Commando is normally a pretty weak promotion, because you can't get very many of them. Either you keep your commando-promoted units with the rest of your stack, in which case they might as well not have Commando. Or you split them off separately, in which case you've neatly separated out a few of your most valuable units into an isolated group where the enemy can easily swarm them. But when you can make one of them every turn, some options start opening up that wouldn't normally be worth considering.

Of course, you have to be playing as an AGG/CHA leader (i.e., Boudica). And you need to settle a few Great Generals in a city with tremendous production potential. And you need to get up to Military Science tech. And you need to be using Melee or Gunpowder units, which means 1-move units except for some super late-game options. And you still have to separate those units out from the ones produced by your other cities. So it's not exactly a game-breaking strategy, just a bit of flair that is an unusual option.

Similarly, an Amphibious army can be fun - or a March army. Have to focus promotions that change the utility to get the most fun for the buck. A few 2-move cannons (gg promoted) could be fun for a tank rush, but that stretches the limits of how much prep I'd be willing to put into somethkng silly.

 

[Snowbird]

Some map with hills en mass + Guerilla II gallic warriors.

 

[Nick723]

If you want some seriously promoted units, then the combination of one city challenge / always war (select difficulty level to suit) and settled great generals can make for some fun.

 

[Gumbolt]

So with 1 GG and an C1 axe I was 5 xp from WM3 and medic 3. So 28 xp needed. Of course you could maybe get some xp from barbs to do this. Or early combat success.

Is Leadership good with cha? +100% experience.

Not used commando much. Could be fun if you can use enemy roads. Would need C4 first.

Oh yes this is mostly for fun and to see if I gain anything useful from it.

Not a big fan of gerilla II gallics,

 

[floydmcw]

I am wrapping up a Cyrus immortal-then-cuirassier curbstomping on Emperor. While it was a lot of fun to promote so many units 3 or 4 times, it seems as though 3 promos (level 4) is the sweet spot for cuirs, giving you access to all the important soft counter promos (Shock, Formation, Pinch). It's not like Combat 4 or Combat 5 is that much better than Combat 3.

Same tendency with other unit type; Drill 4 is great but then what? Combat 1? Yawn.

As others have noted Commando, while fun, is hard to make work, in part because the AI garrisons all its cities. However Commando can work late in an Always War game; tech to some 2-mover and obliterate the AI with a Commando stack.

 

[floydmcw]

When playing around with high-level xp, consider the super-duper medic: a melee unit with woodsman iii gives an additional bonus to healing units on the same tile as the healer, which stacks with heal i, ii, and iii (only stacks if all promotions are on the same unit!).

Mostly out of reach except for Monty's Jaguars (the secret benefit to that unit, with its combat 1 + woodsman 1), or Boudica (aggressive charismatic). But if you are piling on the xp, you can also work towards it by using gg 1 to give the regular medic promotion, and then gg2 to give 10xp to that unit alongside another unit. If you pick up a woodsman 2 unit in early game barb defense, this can help make it happen.

The super-duper medic is just not meaningfully better than the super-medic. The super-medic heals wounded units in 1 turn and badly wounded units in 2 turns. That's usually all you need.

This is another instance of the general problem with super-promoted units; they just aren't gamebreaking. You theorycraft some uber-unit but in real life your 90%-withdrawal can opener attacks 3 times then dies. And you could have suicided 2 ordinary units for more or less the same effect.

 

[floydmcw]

The super-duper medic is just not meaningfully better than the super-medic. The super-medic heals wounded units in 1 turn and badly wounded units in 2 turns. That's usually all you need.

This is another instance of the general problem with super-promoted units; you theorycraft some uber-unit but in real life your 90%-withdrawal can opener attacks 3 times then dies.

An example from one of my own games: I thought it would be a lot of fun to promote a destroyer to Blitz then chew up an entire wooden navy! I forget the specifics but in practice it just wasn't that special.

 

[floydmcw]

So with 1 GG and an C1 axe I was 5 xp from WM3 and medic 3. So 28 xp needed. Of course you could maybe get some xp from barbs to do this. Or early combat success.

Is Leadership good with cha? +100% experience.

Let's do the math. You said C1 axe, say 3 XP. +20 XP = 23.

CHA promo levels are at 2, 4, 8, 13, 20, 28, 38, 49, 62, 76, 92, 109 (thanks to https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/experience-points-per-level-for-units.291650/)

After 10 more XP earned, the Leadership unit has 43 XP and the non-leadership unit has 33 XP. They both get 5 promos (the non-Leadership unit at 4/8/13/20/28, the Leadership at 8/13/20/28/38 because the 4XP promo went for Leadership). Both units have 5 XP toward the next level.

It's hard to get 10 XP on a super-unit. You tend to want safe combats at 99%, but those safe combats award only 1 XP. Sure, you can try a riskier approach but it's unlikely the unit will survive.

So in conclusion, Leadership is not a great idea. Thank you for attending my Ted talk.