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Chavez is president for life

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by TheLastOne36, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    You forgot a key one, crime rate has risen exponentially to amongst the worst in the world.
    I can confirm them.

    Really I can confirm a lot of the stuff if you don't believe them. Take this from Murky's quote:

    " Chávez used unlimited state resources to explicitly engage in his re-election campaign. For example, state television stations broadcast pro-Chávez propaganda, and government buildings display as much too. "

    I lived right next to the teleferico in Merida, and the Teleferico is on a giant cliff basically. The side of the cliff is walled and plastered and has Chavez's hideous mug painted over the span of some 40 meters. Keep in mind the Teleferico is probably amongst the biggest tourist attractions in Venezuela. (Despite it being broken and in disrepair for some 9 years of Chavez' regime)

    or this.

    " Capriles was limited to media appearances of three minutes per day, while Chávez appeared for hours at a time on all television stations as required by law. "

    The radio stations were forced to have 4-6 hour speeches of Chavez and his bestest friends talking (I even listened to a speech by Ahmadinejad once on Venezuelan radio). If the Radio stations did not broadcast the speeches, they were shut down. Keep in mind this isn't the west, radio is still very common and heavily listened to throughout the country.

    Also all channels would sometimes stop their programming and be forced to show Chavez talking. This once happened during El Clasico (Real Madrid versus Barcelona derby in Spain for you Americans) and half the country revolted and Chavez's popularity rating went down by a few percent. :lol:

    " There are thousands of registered voters between the ages of 111 and 129. "

    I don't know if that is a Chavez-ism or not. I've heard that people could bring their deceased parents and grandparents to the voting station and cast their vote so long as they present their ID's.

    But anyway, cato is right. Chavez heads an authoritarian regime and Venezuela is nothing more but a kleptocracy.
     
  2. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    There is huge reason.

    Capriles was a brilliant candidate for even western standards. :(
     
  3. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    It's evil because it creates people that depend on a finite resource. When that runs out they are screwed.
     
  4. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Countries like Venezuela, more often than not all the politicians turn out the same, no matter how they present themselves when they come to power.
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    What an extremely odd rationalization for rich people to get the benefit of sales of limited natural resources, instead of everybody living in the country. They are merely doing all they can to combat "evil".
     
  6. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    You're confused. I'm not suggesting that the poor not benefit or that the oil revenues go only to make the rich that much richer.

    What I'm saying is that they are creating an unsustainable situation where a lot of the poor people are going to suffer in the end.

    They need to do something to create educated, empowered people who are self-sufficient after the petroleum revenues from the state run oil company inevitably runs out or loses value.
     
  7. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Again, do you have any proof whatsoever that this is not what is occurring in Venezuela with Chavez using the oil revenue to educate the population, build hospitals, and improve the infrastructure? That is is instead creating people so dependent upon "the dole" that they can't possibly survive once it eventually ends hundreds of years from now?
     
  8. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    Do you have proof that that is occurring?
     
  9. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Economic policy of the Hugo Chávez government

    What an "evil" man who is so beloved by many, if not most, of his own countrymen, especially the poor who used to be so exploited like they are in most other countries in the region...
     
  10. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    They don't seem to be keeping up with infrastructure maintenance.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/layout/set...vidence-of-deteriorating-infrastructure-video

     
  11. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    He is not.

    Just because you hire more teachers, and make universities enroll more students doesn't mean education level is rising. Nor is the end product better as Chavez is also cutting the years required to get a degree in Venezuela from 4 years to 2.

    Infrastructure is not being developed. Industries are not being developed. The poor is not being helped. Giving the poor a couple luxury items does not get them out of the barrios.

    Barquisimeto which is a huge industrial city (Think Detroit, but on steroids) is doing comparatively poor as western companies are moving their production from Venezuela to Mexico out of fear of prosecution from the government, leading to mass unemployment in the city.

    You are right, there is a very real chance that the candidate that replaced Chavez could turn out similar, and I argued that in the past on this forum as a matter of fact. It's simply the way things are in this part of the world. However, Capriles is not that person. Capriles' presidency would've meant a western friendly democracy with a Brazilian-style economic model.

    Capriles wanted to keep many of Chavez' socialist programs that " helped " the poor but with the idea of altering them so they actually have the long-term goal of moving the lower class out of poverty and the barrios instead of just winning votes prior to the election, along with solving the corruption and inefficiency that characterizes them. Capriles also wanted to actually invest in the education system instead of hiring more teachers and enrolling more students. Education has been one of the cornerstones of Capriles platform.

    Hence why I don't understand Forma's point. The alternative to Chavez is not some crazy right wing republican.
     
  12. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I gather a lot of our resident "progressives" ( :rotfl: ) are happy because the "Jew" and "Homosexual" Capriles was defeated (yes, that's how he was described by the official propaganda machine).

    21st Century Socialism: Keeping The Jew and The Gay in their place!
     
  13. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    One thing to consider about Venezuela's seemingly endless supply of fossil fuels is that they may not retain their value. Even if there is enough there to last hundreds of years, it's unlikely people will want to continue the extensive use of them for that long. Climate change is going to come into play. Development of alternatives will play a role too. Oil could become about was worthless as a commodity as anything you could imagine.
     
  14. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    That's what he said. Lots of other have said much the same. Then they come to power, and that's not how it plays out.

    The best interest of the US, if we bothered to consider our best interest in Latin America, which we really never have, is to push democracy and maximum inclusion to the expense off all other considerations, and then leave it be. Now a lot of people, like Chavez, may come to power through democracy, and then suck. But their sucking is absolutely the wrong reason act to get rid of them.

    What we have done instead is repeatedly tossed out anyone on the "left" who came to power, regardless of how they did it, and then helped bring to power people on the "right" who were even further from working within democratic institutions. And the more we have done this, the worse off we are in the long run.

    So we toss out a socialist and get a fascist. The fascist screws us over, not to mention screws his own people over, even more than the socialist ever did, and then gets overthrown by an even more anti-American socialist. And then we thrash back and forth and the only people who really ever benefit are the cronies of the guy in charge at the moment. All the crap going back and forth, and in the long run nothing ever really gets better.

    So to me, yeah, Chavez sucks. And the election was questionable. But at least it was an election, and at least most of the people think the guy won legitimately. And if nothing else, then there's some small chance that it will help democracy take firmer root and and fairer elections will provide better leaders some time in the future.
     
  15. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Venezuela is probably the richest country in the world in terms of natural resources per capita. The loss of oil as the main source of income should not be a concern if Chavez' government bothered to invest in other areas of production, like the rich diamond deposits, the amazing hydroelectric capabilities, iron, gold, coal, nickel, natural gas not to mention manufacturing, where there is cement, steel, aluminum etc. along with factories and production from western companies in cities like Barquisimeto.

    And did I mention the agricultural department? There is rice, corn, beef, coffee, sugar, cotton, soybeans, palm, peanut, you name it. Venezuela has rich aquaculture potential as well, I've been to many aquafarms in the Andes. Unfortunately, Chavez thrown all the owners into jail and replaced them with his own people who don't do anything so now aquaculture is a very minor part in the economy and most of the fish is now imported.

    Oh and how could I forget... there is huge tourism potential in Venezuela too, from some of the finest beaches you'll find in the Caribbean, to pristine old Spanish colonial cities, and amazing eco-tourism attractions. Of course however, Chavez's government hasn't invested a penny into tourism and instead bought out/thrown into jail all the owners of the tourist companies and nationalized them so now no foreigners come anywhere other than Merida and Margarita islands. I am shocked foreigners still come to Margarita Islands to be honest, I believe that place has the highest level of crime against foreign tourists in the world.
     
  16. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I think your view of South America is stuck in the 60's.

    Chávez is not "par for the course". He is by far the worst and least democratic ruler of the continent. Even Morales and Correa don't really come close.

    Your cynicism is misplaced. South Americans can and have elected decent governments that vastly advanced the living standards of the people, without sacrificing liberty. Look at Chile, pretty much on the verge of being a first world country (and a country that has had competent and entirely democratic governments from both the left and the right since redemocratization). Look at Uruguay, ruled by left-winger but entirely within the framework of a liberal democracy. Look at all the progress Brazil made from 1994 to 2002, and that Colombia has made in the last decade (though of course Colombia remains troublesome).

    Fact is Venezula is an aberration, not the standard.
     
  17. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    If the alternative is a more extreme leftist, then why was the candidate a central-leftist in a center-right party? :crazyeye:

    I agree with you on that it is formerly a worry of the latin world, hence why I have argued the alternative to Chavez is not necessarily a better alternative in the past. However Capriles does not fall into that category.

    In any case, what this election means is that Chavez has 6 years to establish himself as president for life. And should he die suddenly, allow transition of power to his even more extreme brother.
     
  18. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    And you elected Lula, who was one of the best leaders in modern Latin America, and you can't condemn him enough.
     
  19. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    He wasn't a good leader at all. More of a propagandist.

    He didn't do anything but continue the good stuff his predecessor created and then add a bunch of bad stuff, like corruption in an unprecendented scale.

    The economic stability that made Brazil a reference in Latin America was achieved by his predecessor. Lula voted against the Real Plan, which ended hyperinflation. The much celebrated cash transfer scheme that Lula called Bolsa Família was created by his predecessor. Lula just changed the name, as it was known as Bolsa Escola, and used the windfall of commodity money to expand the program. And when the program was run by his predecssor he criticized it and said it created a culture of dependence. If you look at the data, inquality started falling in 1994, not 2003. Lula didn't do a single important reform to modernize the state. His predecessor privatized the corrupt and inefficient state companies, which formed the base of the present Brazilian multi-national giants. Lula inheritted one of the most solid banking systems in the world, because his predecssor had to spend billions to save the banks (while punishing the bankers). And Lula voted against the bank rescue when he was opposition.

    Basically, Lula did nothing but rob money on a colossal scale and buy off Congress. He was also a master of claiming all good to himself while blaming all problems on others. He spent kore days outside pf Brasília advertising himself than in the city doing his job. He spent more on propaganda than all his predecessors combined. He hated and demonised the very tame opposition he receceived, but when he was opposition he voted against every single project of the government, including the ones that saved the country and this his government.

    He deserves no praise whatsoever, only jail. In fact the very top officials of his govnment are on trial right now, and are being sent to jail. Of course, he was the true boss of the corruption scheme, not his liuetenants, but thus far he escaped justice.
     
  20. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    In other words, left wing bad, right wing good. :p It's exactly that kind of thinking that has kept Latin America from climbing out of poverty.
     

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