Chavez is president for life

[TheLastOne36]

There is no mystery.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It says that most of the U.S. electorate have very strong prejudices that they're still struggling to overcome, and that they have quite the cheek to call themselves a democratic or liberal country, bastion of freedom and equality, etc. etc.

I couldn't agree more, except I think it is now to the point where it is only many instead of most.

None of which disproves in any way the fact that Chávez is a power-hungry megalomaniac whose family and friends have misteriously become millionaires after coming to power.

How is that really any different from the typical right-wing South American leader? Which country are you from again?

 

[W|M]

How is that really any different from the typical right-wing South American leader?

The fact that Chávez isn't rightist?

 

[luiz]

And it's not like Chávez is the exception to the rule in the corruption department either...

The Kirchner couple in Argentina is left-wing (their supporters think so anyway) and they have become multi-millionaires through corruption.

The Workers' Party in Brazil is left-wing and the former president of the party, the most important minister and several other members of the high ranks were just condemned by Supreme Court because of corruption (in what was essentially a condemnation of the whole Lula government - whose family also became all multi-millionaires, mysteriously and suddenly).

Just to stick to two notorious cases (but don't get me wrong, some south-american leftist governments are quite clean, like Mujica's in Uruguay and Chile's former President, Bachelet).

BTW Takhisis, I'll be in Buenos Aires monday. How are things over there?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The fact that Chávez isn't rightist?

That is exactly my point. How is he any different than any of the the typical far-right banana republic leaders?

 

[Leoreth]

That is exactly my point. How is he any different than any of the the typical far-right banana republic leaders?

You don't come rushing to their defense?

 

[Ondskan]

The kirchner couple started as millionaires.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You don't come rushing to their defense?

I'm not "rushing" to anybody's defense, much less Chavez. I'm merely pointing out how hypocritical and disingenuous many of the comments are. Chavez is just an example of a corrupt left-wing politician instead of a right-wing one, and there are far worse who seem to manage to escape any sort of similar criticism largely due to their political and economic ideology.

Chavez is apparently quite popular because he has used the natural resources of his country for the benefit of the common man, instead of allowing them to be used to make a few rich people even richer. To many conservatives, this is the ultimate evil and their greatest fear. That those who are incessantly exploited will no longer allow themselves to be the victims of rampant greed, especially when it is being done by foreigners.

It doesn't make them "ignorant idiots" at all to vote for the man they think will best benefit themselves. Ironically, that is what free democratic elections are all about.

 

[luiz]

The kirchner couple started as millionaires.

Nestor K became a zillionaire after his rule as governor of Santa Cruz, when one billion dollars simply went missing from the public purse (I am not kidding, that's the actual amount that went missing).

 

[TheLastOne36]

You guys should all move to Venezuela.

 

[holy king]

why did you move there btw? is poland worse?

 

[TheLastOne36]

why did you move there btw? is poland worse?

I went there to make money. My family owns a tourism business there. Well owned, they sold it now and are escaping for Switzerland after the like fiftieth death threat from government paid gangs. My Aunt+Uncle would usually tell them to **** off but this time they threatened my 10 and 12 year old cousins, telling my aunt/uncle about the route they take for school and what time they leave every morning and how they would kidnap and torture them.

That was the last straw for them. They sold (or are in the process of selling) the business to some friends of theirs and they escaped to Switzerland. (My Uncle is Swiss)

 

[Murky]

You couldn't pay me enough to move there. No way. Bad as things are in the USA they are much worse in Venezuela by every indication that I've seen/read. There are some other countries that I've considered becoming an expat to live in, but they are not like that.

 

[innonimatu]

What exactly are these "government paid gangs" you mention?

Everyone who complains about Venezuela stresses "the violence". What's the history of that?

 

[Ondskan]

Hope it's a co-operative now.

 

[Ayatollah So]

I'm not a fan of the Cato Institute but what this article says rings true to me.

That's even worse than Iraq!

Elections do not a democracy make. If the major news media are controlled by one party, the votes of a disinformed public are not very functional in giving them the power to rule the rulers. (OT: For that matter, if the media time can be oligopolized by the highest bidders, that's a pretty serious problem too.)

It's interesting and cool that Chavez is encouraging genuine democracy at the local level, as TraitorFish points out. But I guess it's not going to reach his level.

having the right orchestrate a coup against you and dragging you off to some godforsaken island tends to make you rather paranoid.

Well yeah, there is that.

 

[luiz]

RE: Violence in Venezuela under Chávez:

Venezuela has become a criminalized state," said Vanessa Neumann, a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute. "You have drug traffickers and Colombian guerrillas operating in the country, and government officials have become involved with them. That makes it difficult to combat crime."

Crime is common in Latin America. The Mexico-based Citizen Council for Public Safety and Criminal Justice, a non-government entity that compiles homicide statistics, found that 40 of the world's 50 most dangerous cities last year were in Latin America.

Venezuela stands apart in two important areas, said Roberto Briceño León, who heads the Observatorio Venezolano de Violencia, a non-government group that monitors crime in the country.

"First, crime here is increasing unlike most Latin countries that are experiencing a decline," he said. "And secondly, the government isn't making it a priority or taking the right steps to combat it."

Instead, Chávez has made it worse by arming groups who support his presidency and taking over state and city police forces, León said.

Murders and kidnappings have soared since Chávez took office in 1999. Last year, the Observatorio estimates 18,850 people were murdered, up from 4,550 in 1998. There were almost 16,000 kidnappings, up from a few hundred in 1998.

Venezuela now has more murders annually than the U.S. and European Union combined

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/09/20/venzuela-crime-chavez-reelection/1581261/

 

[TheLastOne36]

You couldn't pay me enough to move there. No way. Bad as things are in the USA they are much worse in Venezuela by every indication that I've seen/read. There are some other countries that I've considered becoming an expat to live in, but they are not like that.

Well I am much younger than you (I think anyway). I didn't had anything to lose and I don't look Polish/white so as long as I don't open my mouth nobody knows I am a gringo.

What exactly are these "government paid gangs" you mention?

Everyone who complains about Venezuela stresses "the violence". What's the history of that?

My family's business makes money. Government wants to nationalize it so they hire gangs to scare my Aunt+Uncle off. (By demanding large sums of money, bankrupting the business, government steps in afterwords with an offer to buy very cheap) It's basically extortion.

My family didn't get it off so bad. A friend of ours from France who was a really nice guy also owned a tourist company nearby, had a hit job done on him and dissappeared one day. They went over to his wife and told her to sell the business to the government or they would kill him. His wife sold it but the French guy is still missing IIRC. It's really terrible, he had two young children.

Venezuela wasn't always so violent. Before Chavez the crime rate in Venezuela was no higher than in the rest of Latin America, but now it is second worst in the world I think, after South Africa. More people die on a daily basis in Caracas than they did in Iraq during the worst fighting.

Alot of this is due to the support Chavez grants them. it is something well known even to Venezuelans from what I could tell; though violence is so part of the life in Venezuela I think most Venezuelans just turn a blind eye to it. Chavez is also a well known supporter of the FARCS in Colombia.

 

[Takhisis]

I couldn't agree more, except I think it is now to the point where it is only many instead of most.

I mean the people who actually show up to vote. Too many people from the U.S. tell me 'I don't vote' for my peace of mind.

How is that really any different from the typical right-wing South American leader?

It's not. But by raising the 'socialist' flag -while having real socialists expelled from the country or from this world altogether- he gets the approval of millions of useful idiots around the globe.

The fact that Chávez isn't rightist?

He is in all but name.

BTW Takhisis, I'll be in Buenos Aires monday. How are things over there?

PM.

The kirchner couple started as millionaires.

Nestor K became a zillionaire after his rule as governor of Santa Cruz, when one billion dollars simply went missing from the public purse (I am not kidding, that's the actual amount that went missing).

Ye-es and no. N. Kirchner started making money during what his widow calls a 'successful law practice' which means they were in cahoots with the military government in Santa Cruz during the dirty war and made money by collecting foreclosures on the poor -they have less to give but much less to defend it with. Then, yes, Kirchner did indeed put several hundred million dollars into an offshore bank account (or more) -as a 'safety measure'- which have never been seen again. The Kirchners (the Presidential couple, His sister who's always been a cabinet minister, and also a few nephews, cousins, inlaws, their former driver/bodyguard who's also a millionaire now, etc. etc.) usually buy fiscal land at less than a tenth of its value and sell it for its real value, making astronomical profits.

The President's declared assets (by sworn statement) were worth around 2 million when less than a decade ago. They're at nearly 80 million as of her latest sowrn statement, and she can't answer how she made such a difference. When questioned about this during a conference in Harvard, she simply started saying that it was all lies. So she's either lying to Argentine tax authorities (a crime for which you can do jail time) or she was lying during the conference. Take your pick, it's damning either way.
Of course, I'm not counting the 'expenses' such as buying Louis Vuitton handbags or Christian Loboutin shoes, those're apparently necessary for the adequate governing of the country.

What exactly are these "government paid gangs" you mention?

Easy. You give out guns to groups of people so that they can intimidate the opposition. or wavering supporters if need be. In the spare time, they keep their guns and kill each other, or passersby, or both.

Here in Argentina it's done by arming hooligan gangs (football hoolgians) and including them in the official delegations with paid trips to South Africa two days ago (thankfully most of them were returned, unlike Mexico in '86 where Argentine and English hooligans clashed otuside the stadium), and recently the Presidentess said live on TV that hooliganism is the best thing about football.

 

[TheLastOne36]

It's not. But by raising the 'socialist' flag -while having real socialists expelled from the country or from this world altogether- he gets the approval of millions of useful idiots around the globe.

This is really the thing that astounds me the most in this thread. Chavez is not a socialist. He probably couldn't even tell you what Socialism is. (From what I heard on national radio, he clearly has no idea what it is)

Chavez is a thief. A kleptocrat.