Chemistry...

[Hyoga]

...sucks.

In all seriousness, it bugs me that a tech so vital as Chemistry has been made so useless in BtS. It also makes no sense anymore.

Before, you got a Grenadier with Chemistry. Grenadiers were key counters to Riflemen, and thus Chemistry was a very useful tech while at the same time being necessary for progress. Also, Grenadiers make sense with Chemistry, as you need the knowledge of Chemistry to be able to make the explosives that they use.

Now, when you discover Chemistry you get... pirates? What? How in the world does that work? Along with the Frigate, of course.

Discovering atoms and reactions allows you to make... ships with sails? Huh? Where is the sense? Where is the logic?

The only thing that makes some sense is the +1 to Workshops.

EDIT: And why does the Frigate get cannons with which to bombard cities and ships if you can't even build regular cannons until you discover Steel? There are flaws here...


Chemistry, at this point, is the least useful of the four sciences. We all know that Mathematics, Physics, and Biology are all key techs to have. And we are all glad to get them and spend research on them; they're all quite beneficial. But Chemistry? I'm only getting it because it leads to Gunpowder. If my neighbors are all peaceful, then I ain't going for it until I absolutely have to.

It's become a tech that you leave for last if you can.

I understand the need to push back the Grenadier and I support it. But Chemistry needs something to make it worthwhile and pirates are neither all that worthwhile nor accurate for the tech.

This needs to be fixed. Chemistry should at least open up a building that provides extra .

In real life, Chemistry did a crapload of things that changed the world.

In BtS it gives you pirates. Yay?

 

[Soneji]

Well, if you look... caravels have four cannon as well.. which pisses me off no end.. no one thought to take those canon off the ship and stick em on chariot wheels? There does seem to be a small amount of thought put into this really..

It does seem odd to go from Musketman, then to Grenadier. It should be the old old way of Musketman > Rifleman > Grenadier.

I mean, I am not moaning too much, as upgrading Mace to Grenadiers is a useful power jump.

 

[Seras]

my guess at an explanation would that before steel, canons were too heavy to be used in the field and therefor were only used on ships(you cant aim with a frigate's canon, you can only aim with the frigate hehe)

 

[Psyringe]

Ever heard of catapults on ships? As long as you don't have cannons, you can very well hurl large boulders to the city walls mechanically. I don't see a problem?

 

[Cvntpumeler]

my guess at an explanation would that before steel, canons were too heavy to be used in the field and therefor were only used on ships(you cant aim with a frigate's canon, you can only aim with the frigate hehe)

Seras is totally right, you could make Cannons out of Iron or another alloy other than Steel, but those other metals and alloys are so heavy that the cannon wouldn't have been mobile on land. What makes Steel such a great alloy is that it's incredibly hard for it's weight -- making it the perfect metal for land-based cannons.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

You could also think of the early cannons as bombards (look it up if you haven't heard of those), but this doesn't really satisfy me. Cannons need to come much earlier than steel IMO.

 

[LedHead]

ya no one ever made cannons from bronze...

bronze working + gunpowder = cannon
steel + gunpowder = better cannon

 

[Soneji]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mons_Meg

There is a bombard. Largest in Europe at some point.

Made of Iron.

 

[johnny_rico]

Isn't chemistry a prerequisite for biology? If you value biology, then certainly some value should be placed on chemistry.

Also chemistry is needed to open up military science and steel, no?

So, while you might not get a lot of awesome things in the game by researching chemistry, it certainly is a gateway to a lot of good things. Plus, privateers are fantastic. You'll pull in so much gold with them blockading coastal cities, a good 15-20 of them can actually have an impact on your economy. And, they'll upgrade to destroyers later.

I suppose one can harp on the logic of the tech tree and how it might not make sense that certain things become available with certain techs, but, it is only a game after all. And one that is pretty balanced at that. If cannons became available much earlier, then trebs would be useless.

 

[Dan Quale]

Lets face it the first cannons were made out of wood(historically) surrounded by wooden bands. Sure they exploded and killed about as many operators as enemies but they still fired.

Chemistry now allows privateers which are for lack of a better word shiny, but very useful vs backwards civs you could conquer, but would rather annoy with shiny things.

 

[Xyqtt]

tbh the basic of chemistry where quite useless. While the basics of physics and mathematics are quite usefull. mathematics for building, currency etc. Physics to understand why things happen and the use from it. While chemistry there is nothing. Very nice that you know that 2 different molecules can combine to 1 adn make another molecul. Or liquid or whatever they first thought up. But the more advanced uses, like gunpowder(I don't see why you need chemistry for this, because even without the basics of chemistry and soem trail and error you can make some pretty big blow ^^ (see China 2000bc) or dynamite and much later moleculair biology. So as basic chemsitry is quite useless. But the advanced usage of chemsitry is way more usefull

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also Chemisty is necessary for Steam Power->Railroad , Assembly Line, Combustion (all of which you can get without knowing Physics)

Chemistry supports all the Industry that lets you build the Industrial Era units Physics leads to (Tanks, Battleships, Planes, Artillery)

But I do agree that a Gunpowder+Engineering Siege unit would be very good (require Copper or Iron... Str 6 +50% v. city, bombard 8%.. but its Gunpowder so no Walls/Castles to bother with)

 

[Antilogic]

tbh the basic of chemistry where quite useless. While the basics of physics and mathematics are quite usefull. mathematics for building, currency etc. Physics to understand why things happen and the use from it. While chemistry there is nothing. Very nice that you know that 2 different molecules can combine to 1 adn make another molecul. Or liquid or whatever they first thought up. But the more advanced uses, like gunpowder(I don't see why you need chemistry for this, because even without the basics of chemistry and soem trail and error you can make some pretty big blow ^^ (see China 2000bc) or dynamite and much later moleculair biology. So as basic chemsitry is quite useless. But the advanced usage of chemsitry is way more usefull

...

I'm not sure I follow your argument or should even dignify it with a response. Could you define "basic" chemistry? The concept of phase changes, for example, I consider basic chemistry, and you can't tell me that using steam to power turbines isn't useful. For an earlier example, how about manufacturing soap and other products? Obtaining dyes from plants could be considered a chemical process as well. The basics of chemistry simply described what humans were already practicing for centuries. Those processes were useful and still are quite useful, we just understand them better now.

 

[alvan]

I kind of like workshops, they're great with cities with no hills and lots of plains. Goes great with Caste System aswell (which is my favorite).

 

[KMadCandy]

Chemistry now allows privateers which are for lack of a better word shiny, but very useful vs backwards civs you could conquer, but would rather annoy with shiny things.

or for earning GG points in an otherwise peaceful game. i <3 privateers. yay for shiny!!!

why do i need GGs in a peaceful game? because they're shiny too.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

...

I'm not sure I follow your argument or should even dignify it with a response. Could you define "basic" chemistry? The concept of phase changes, for example, I consider basic chemistry, and you can't tell me that using steam to power turbines isn't useful. For an earlier example, how about manufacturing soap and other products? Obtaining dyes from plants could be considered a chemical process as well. The basics of chemistry simply described what humans were already practicing for centuries. Those processes were useful and still are quite useful, we just understand them better now.

Well outside of civ, Steam Power is in an area that is more towards physics than chemistry. And eating is a chemical process, but we don't need any tech for that.
Modern Chemistry, in its immediate use, probably goes towards better manufacturing of products (the workshop bonus) and explosives ala Nobel. The second isn't really represented (perhaps the Frigate+Privateer). but the first is.

 

[Antilogic]

I beg to differ on steam power. As a chemical engineer, I was taught how to design steam turbines, refrigeration cycles, and stuff like that. Many early processes, like fermentation (to cite another example), could also be argued as in the domain of chemistry. Just because we figured it out when we suspected that lead could be turned into gold by some stone doesn't mean it isn't chemistry.

 

[bonafide11]

...And Future Tech should give way more than +1 happiness and health! Future tech is going to change the world!

 

[Hyoga]

Guys, you've all nailed my main point on the head without noticing it.

Chemistry is now merely a lead-in tech.

Biology, Physics, and Mathematics are all lead-in techs as well, but on top of that they provide great immediate benefits, making you want to research them right away.

Chemistry you don't research right away because it has no immediate benefits. Or, more accurately, you'll research it right away only in order to get what comes after. And while you're researching it, you can't help but feel that you should be something else instead, something that will give you a meaningful benefit upon discovery.

So, essentially, Chemistry is the crappiest of all the scientific techs now. With Grenadiers it used to be a very attractive tech that was also a lead-in tech. Just like all the other scientific techs.

Without Grenadiers, Chemistry needs to be given something to make it truly worthwhile again, not a painful lead-in.

It makes no sense that Chemistry, of all techs, has now become a tech for naval superiority. I mean seriously, it can be so much more...

 

[IamJohn]

I don't see how that means that other techs can be so much more as well.

For me personally in my games grenadiers were the end all and be all of the game at that tech period, now Firaxis has balanced things out more, and given more choices, as it should be.