China hits back with report on U.S. human rights record

As a liberal, I would tell you that it is never justified to kill one person to prevent the death of ten. It is also never justified to torture one person to prevent the death of ten, or to wrongfully execute one innocent to prevent the wrongful pardon of ten murderers. If we accept the concept of unalienable human rights, we have to live with this. If we believe that a right can be moderated in cases of national emergency, we must also accept that it was never an unalienable right to begin with.
 
Then what happens to the rights of the 9 people who would then die? Conveniently ignored so you can maintain your principles?

It's not so simple, and your pontificating on inalienable human rights smacks of arrogance when you refuse to consider the nuances. That's why liberals have such a hard time dealing with the issue of Chinese governance outside of their circle jerk.
 
If you don't mind my asking a personal and totally irrelevant question, how does a full-time volunteer support himself?

I don't mind at all. I live in private donated housing - where I cut my teeth on doing building maintenance and renovation. Meals are provided through our bemefit program and personal items are supplied by individuals and businesses who support what we do. I do not go into specifics here because these are not Red organizations and I have already tipped my hand as a Red, and it would be unfair to non-Reds I work with since I don't use communism as an inducement to recruit volunteers for these organizations. Thanks for asking.
 
Then what happens to the rights of the 9 people who would then die? Conveniently ignored so you can maintain your principles?

It's not so simple, and your pontificating on inalienable human rights smacks of arrogance when you refuse to consider the nuances. That's why liberals have such a hard time dealing with the issue of Chinese governance outside of their circle jerk.

The liberal argument is that while their deaths are regrettable, the moral responsibility is not to take life, rather than to save it. Saving life is commendable, but to fail to do so does not represent, in most cases, a moral failing.

In long form, the 'right to life' means 'the right to not have any human being kill you', the right to liberty means 'the right to not have any human being enslave you', and so on. When we talk of rights, we do not usually talk of them in an absolute sense, but as protections from other human action, backed up by the enforcement of the state. Some liberals, myself included, argue that there are some rights which do not come under this category, but when we say 'right' in this sense we really mean something which a good government ought to provide, rather than a fundamental right - I think I discussed this earlier. I'd say that any civilised society ought to give its citizens the right to good healthcare, quality education, clean water and so on, which doesn't just mean that it should prevent anybody from polluting the water supply. However, these aren't fundamental rights - a government unable to grant them is not automatically committing a crime unless there's something ulterior going on, for example denying good healthcare only to a certain section of society.

So, in your example, the state would be justified in ordering its agents to kill nine people in order to save one, provided that those nine people were wilfully trying to kill the one. It would not, however, be justified in ordering its agents to pick a healthy man off the street, kill him, harvest his organs, and use them to save the lives of ten patients at the hospital. Yes, those ten have a right to life, but it doesn't work like that. Put another way, as a general rule with many exceptions, liberals do not accept that the state can infringe upon the rights of one person to promote the good of another. I've seen a sort of empathy principle used on here - if you imagine yourself as one of the people used as a sacrifice in these scenarios, it's very difficult to argue that you'd bear it stoically for the good of society.
 
You're a military man. I bet you're familiar with the term collateral damage. Suppose in trying to ultimately save the lives of thousands, you kill a few hundred enemies. In the process, you know that at least a few innocent civilian deaths are unavoidable. Would such a course of action be wrong?

The fact that you are soldier already makes me think that your own practical morality is a lot more complex than you make it out to be. It must be really difficult to be one while being such a staunch liberal.
 
You're a military man. I bet you're familiar with the term collateral damage. Suppose in trying to ultimately save the lives of thousands, you kill a few hundred enemies. In the process, you know that at least a few innocent civilian deaths are unavoidable. Would such a course of action be wrong?

The fact that you are soldier already makes me think that your own practical morality is a lot more complex than you make it out to be. It must be really difficult to be one while being such a staunch liberal.

Intent matters a lot, for example there is a world of difference between shooting back at a twelve year old who attacked you first and gunning down an unarmed twelve year old
 
That is completely irrelevant to the scenario above. Obviously collateral damage is not incurred intentionally in the particular times when it is incurred. You do, however, go to war knowing that there will be collateral damage.
 
Well, I welcome constructive criticism no matter the source.

But the attempt to deflect from its own abysmal human rights record is pretty transparent. And I'm surprised the OP is so quick to the defense of a country where capitalist exploitation runs rampant. But the ruling party has communist in its name so I guess all is fine.

Disagree, this report is only meant to harm. You can find genuinely well meaning human rights organisations within the states already making similiar claims. This is just propaganda.
 
They are the same facts being disseminated about both governments by the same human rights organizations.

Why is it "only meant to harm" and "propaganda" when the Chinese government does it, but it apparently isn't when the US government does the same thing?
 
It's pretty obvious that the USA have a lot of flaws in their human rights records.

But for China to comment on this... that takes a good amount of nerves and shamelessness.
That's akin to the murderer extracting his knife from the body of an old lady while lecturing you about how you've called one of your classmates names.
 
You're a military man. I bet you're familiar with the term collateral damage. Suppose in trying to ultimately save the lives of thousands, you kill a few hundred enemies. In the process, you know that at least a few innocent civilian deaths are unavoidable. Would such a course of action be wrong?

The fact that you are soldier already makes me think that your own practical morality is a lot more complex than you make it out to be. It must be really difficult to be one while being such a staunch liberal.

First of all, my liberal politics covers the relationship between the state and the citizen. Again, in longhand, what I mean by 'rights' is the trade-off we expect from handing over licence to use coercive power to the state. In saying I have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I am saying that the state must protect these rights in order to continue to enjoy the legitimacy that it has. What I'm about to say below isn't really covered by liberal theory; the relationship between an individual soldier or officer - as distinct from the government's orders - and his enemy is a matter for private morality or international law.

You're right that we at times expect collateral damage. As an individual soldier it is your responsibility to minimise it as much as you can; you've probably heard my quick ethical assessment that if you can justify everything you do before your God, you're probably doing alright. With that in mind, I don't believe you can ever take a shot knowing that civilians will be hurt by it. We often get reports of civilian buildings being mistakenly targeted by drone or missile strikes in Afghanistan; we never get reports of houses known to contain both civilians and enemy fighters being deliberately targeted. To do so is not only militarily unsound, since it writes the enemy's propaganda for them, it's also deeply immoral. This is all within the remit of your mission, however: you have to minimise collateral as far as possible while doing what you're told to do, since your duty as a soldier is to the mission first, assuming that your orders do not directly and clearly contradict international law.

I remember the final phases of the Battle of Goose Green, when our new CO - a profoundly religious man - sent a dispatch to the enemy informing them that if they did not surrender, he would order the bombardment of the town, which was still occupied by its inhabitants, and the Argentines would be held responsible. I've often wondered since then if he would actually have done it, and my inclination is that he would not. I know I certainly would not have been able to use civilian lives - particularly our own civilians, whom we were sent to the Falklands to liberate and protect - as a bargaining chip, although I might have had the sheer cajones to bluff like Keeble did.

Intent matters a lot, for example there is a world of difference between shooting back at a twelve year old who attacked you first and gunning down an unarmed twelve year old

Indeed. I happen to be of the school of thought which says that, on a moral level, actions should only be judged on intent and forseeable consequences.
 
First of all, my liberal politics covers the relationship between the state and the citizen. Again, in longhand, what I mean by 'rights' is the trade-off we expect from handing over licence to use coercive power to the state. In saying I have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I am saying that the state must protect these rights in order to continue to enjoy the legitimacy that it has. What I'm about to say below isn't really covered by liberal theory; the relationship between an individual soldier or officer - as distinct from the government's orders - and his enemy is a matter for private morality or international law.

You're right that we at times expect collateral damage. As an individual soldier it is your responsibility to minimise it as much as you can; you've probably heard my quick ethical assessment that if you can justify everything you do before your God, you're probably doing alright. With that in mind, I don't believe you can ever take a shot knowing that civilians will be hurt by it. We often get reports of civilian buildings being mistakenly targeted by drone or missile strikes in Afghanistan; we never get reports of houses known to contain both civilians and enemy fighters being deliberately targeted. To do so is not only militarily unsound, since it writes the enemy's propaganda for them, it's also deeply immoral. This is all within the remit of your mission, however: you have to minimise collateral as far as possible while doing what you're told to do, since your duty as a soldier is to the mission first, assuming that your orders do not directly and clearly contradict international law.

I remember the final phases of the Battle of Goose Green, when our new CO - a profoundly religious man - sent a dispatch to the enemy informing them that if they did not surrender, he would order the bombardment of the town, which was still occupied by its inhabitants, and the Argentines would be held responsible. I've often wondered since then if he would actually have done it, and my inclination is that he would not. I know I certainly would not have been able to use civilian lives - particularly our own civilians, whom we were sent to the Falklands to liberate and protect - as a bargaining chip, although I might have had the sheer cajones to bluff like Keeble did.

I think this point covers your post:

That is completely irrelevant to the scenario above. Obviously collateral damage is not incurred intentionally in the particular times when it is incurred. You do, however, go to war knowing that there will be collateral damage.

Of course collateral damage is not intentionally incurred. That much is obvious. But clearly, such a scenario presents your liberal principle with a dillemma it doesn't seem able to handle. Since the end cannot justify the means, how can you choose a course of action knowing that some people will be deprived of life in the process, even if you do not specifically intend for that to happen?

As for your point that you believe the liberal principle governs only the relationship between the individual and the state, what makes this relationship so special? In fact, I don't think the early liberal thinkers made such a distinction. Rights are universal and concern not only citizens qua citizens.
 
They are the same facts being disseminated about both governments by the same human rights organizations.

Why is it "only meant to harm" and "propaganda" when the Chinese government does it, but it apparently isn't when the US government does the same thing?

Ahh I was wondering when the enemy of freedom and friend of tyrants shows up.

I'm not surprised Forma doesn't understand the irony of a horrendous human rights abuser criticising the paltry wrong doings of the states.

Akka has got it right.
 
I think I answered that - because you do your damnedest to make sure that as little damage occurs as possible, you never intentionally inflict it, and at the end you can say that there was nothing more you could have done to minimise civilian casualties. Bear in mind that once a state has gone to war, there's usually no better option. The state's first duty is to protect its citizens, and it is doing wrong if it avoids that for any reason. As such, its moral obligation is to go to war when a foreign country threatens the safety of its people, and if that involves collateral damage, so be it. Otherwise, if it will not accept the duty of protection, it has no business being a state: it ought to dissolve itself and allow the people to protect themselves.

My point isn't that non-citizens have no right to life - they do - but that poltical theory only covers the relationship between citizen and state. Morality to me also says that I should never do unto others as I would not have them do unto me, which implies that all people have a right to life, but it also implies that it can be taken away in certain circumstances. I wouldn't say it was immoral for an enemy soldier to shoot me, and therefore I don't feel morally unable to shoot him. This is similar, but fundamentally distinct from the right to life which the state must acknowledge in its citizens.
 
I wouldn't say it was immoral for an enemy soldier to shoot me, and therefore I don't feel morally unable to shoot him.

This is a curious position, though. It means you think that the cause the enemy soldier is defending/fighting for is as strong as your own cause, it seems to me. Surely this can't really be the case.
 
No, it means I think that the enemy soldier is willing to die for his cause, otherwise he wouldn't be there. A few people on here will recall an anecdote I once told about encountering a situation where that plainly did not apply.
 
But unless you both think your cause is "better" than the other's, you couldn't (attempt) to kill each other.

This is just a vicious circle. And the only way out is the death of one or the other.
 
No, we have exactly the same level of right to life while engaged in combat - namely, zero. By putting yourself in a combat situation, in my mind, you sign away your right not to be killed by the enemy. Once you're out of it, by being injured or taken prisoner, it again becomes wrong - and a war crime - for the enemy to shoot you.
 
I think I answered that - because you do your damnedest to make sure that as little damage occurs as possible, you never intentionally inflict it, and at the end you can say that there was nothing more you could have done to minimise civilian casualties. Bear in mind that once a state has gone to war, there's usually no better option. The state's first duty is to protect its citizens, and it is doing wrong if it avoids that for any reason. As such, its moral obligation is to go to war when a foreign country threatens the safety of its people, and if that involves collateral damage, so be it. Otherwise, if it will not accept the duty of protection, it has no business being a state: it ought to dissolve itself and allow the people to protect themselves.

But "the end does not justify the means" explicitly excludes cases where the intent is right but the means are questionable. Your intent is to kill the correct people and minimise other casualties. Yet the means you go about doing that ensures there will be other casualties. It clearly contravenes your principle.

Flying Pig said:
My point isn't that non-citizens have no right to life - they do - but that poltical theory only covers the relationship between citizen and state.

As I said, no it doesn't. Show me a good precedent for such a line of thinking in liberal theory.
 
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