China reacts angrily to new US arms deal with Taiwan

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    Funny, I seem to remember a certain nation, around, oh, 1949, that simply repudiated its foreign debt, refusing to pay it back. No-one stopped them because they were powerful enough to get away with it, damn, I wish I could remember who they where. :hmm:
     
  2. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    The only ill effects the US could conceivably feel is that there would be less countries willing to lend them money. However, if the loans were repudiated with some reasonable justification (like Chinese aggression against its neighbors), then this effect would likely be negligible.
    If one owes one million dollars to a bank, then it is his problem. If one owes one trillion dollars to a bank, then it's the banks's problem.
    That's plain facts.
     
  3. fishjie

    fishjie omghi2u

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    haha touche, simply subtract that 260 billion or however much it is china owes from the 1.4 trillion, and call it good. btw that reneging of debt was also combined with a violent overthrowing of the government. wouldn't be so smart if america wants to do the same thing.

    america loves to deficit spend, reneging its debts pretty much ruins its reputation, and cuts off its source of funding for their wasteful spending. reasonable justification is subjective. some of america's allies might be ok with it, others not so much.

    Well, if one owes a trillion, its both the bank and the debtor's problem. bankruptcy is never a pretty sight, just take a look at iceland.
     
  4. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    Actually, if China hadn't repudiated its debt, it would be well above that $1.4 trillion by now. I remember reading somewhere that China's debt exceeded the entire GDP of Europe at one point. Besides which, the fact that Taiwan also repudiated its debt doesn't do much for your argument, since it was the pre-existing government, and it's also never suffered from not paying. The reason is because no-one is capable of forcing it too, just as no-one is capable of forcing the US to pay its debt. As Yeekim said, the worst that would happen would be that some nations might be wary of lending the US money, but most wouldn't care, so long as there was some legitimate reason - ie; Chinese aggression - to do so.
     
  5. woody60707

    woody60707 Deity

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    Ummm This is the 1st I heard of China stiffing the US on unpaid debt. Doesn't seem to be in wiki (I hated saying that!)

    Anyone wanna shine some light on that for me?
     
  6. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    Ching China accumulated massive amounts of debt with numerous foreign powers, most notably Britain, but also including the US. When the Ching dynasty was overthrown the new Chinese Republic agreed to pay off all of its old debt. It also took out new loans, placing itself even deeper in debt. These debts were inherited by the Nationalist government, now in charge of Taiwan.

    Theoretically, since the PRC is now recognised as the sole Chinese government, it has inherited these old debts. The CCP, however, made a point of repudiating all foreign debts as soon as it came into power in 1949, whether it had officially inherited them yet or not, and Taiwan has never acknowledged the debts since.

    None of these means China has welshed on debts to the US though, for the simple reason that the US cancelled China's debt during WWII. I'm pretty sure the UK did as well, and Japan's was probably forcibly repudiated during the war, but China should still owe a whole bunch of nations, like France and Germany, a heap of money.
     
  7. neutrino

    neutrino Warlord

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    China could show its displeasure by buying less US Treasury securities. Unfortunately, this amounts to downshifting the exchange rate of the Dollar relative to the Yuan. China's export-centric and mercantilistic trade policies would then conflict with changes in its monetary policy. In the meantime, China has to import energy and key strategic minerals across the oceans: Things that the US can cut off if push becomes a shove. (Which the US has done in the past: Before the Pearl Harbor.)
     
  8. Theige

    Theige American Baron

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    The U.S. is not going to repudiate its debt. Even in the current fiscal climate, we are nowhere near taking that step, and talking about it is very silly.

    US Treasuries are openly traded, if China doesn't want them, they can sell them, its that simple.

    China now is far different than Japan in 1941. Japan was buying all their oil from the US. Blockading China would be a very serious act of aggression, and they would take it as an act of war.
     
  9. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    But maybe they can do it with a zig-zag.
     
  10. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    China does not have to worry, Taiwan will eventually rejoin the motherland. They cannot resist mighty China forever.
     
  11. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    The ROC probably feels the same way about mainland China :)
     
  12. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Then the ROC is crazy in the head.

    Taiwan is slowly fading into obscurity while the mainland is rising in power.

    They fought a civil war 60 years ago, they lost.

    Its like the south losing and then fleaing to some obscure island and wanting people to recognize them.
     
  13. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Lightforged Draenei Ghost Agent

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    OMG, The Fallen Angel Lord is actually defending COMMUNIST China? God forbid he defends countrys like Poland, Cuba.
     
  14. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    There is no 'defending' communist China. They are the country the world actually recognizes and not that little island.
     
  15. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Lightforged Draenei Ghost Agent

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    By bullying other nations by having a little princess temper tantrum in recognizing the one and only true China? Yeah, that does help there PR :p.



    The Republic of China (Taiwan) is as a legitimate country as Poland (Yes I said CFCOT's P-word :p), France, Russia, etc. FYI, there are countries that do have a backbone to reconize the ROC as a country :p.
     
  16. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    The USA would be doing the exact same if the south fled to some island after the civil war.

    The ROC is just a bunch of guys who lost a war that needed a place to hideout. The only reason they exist is because the west interfered because they didn't like communism. Basically, they fought a war and lost and don't want to admit they totally lost. They can more readily be compared to a rebel state than an actual soverign nation.
     
  17. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Lightforged Draenei Ghost Agent

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    This is about the PROC and ROC, the the USA. There wernt any islands in US possetion untill AFTER the Spanish American War. The confederates fleeing to Cuba or Puerto Rico? Please, the Spanish would put them right back in there boats to go home. However, I doubt any nation would take in Jefferson Davis :p.

    Unlike a rebel state, It has it's own developed government and infrastructure as well as it's own armed forces. Really would you want to live in a communist government? Why the heck do you think there were fleeing from Eastern Europe crossing the iron curtin?

    I certainly doubt the ROC would want the oppressive nature of the PROC being imposed on there lives including censorship and the Tiananmen Square Denial.
     
  18. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    You know why the ROC could flee to Taiwan? Its because the natives there didn't have the power to defend themselves. They basically took over the island. Taiwan was not uninhabited before then.

    Rebel states sometimes also have their own government and infrastructure. Taiwan exists today basically because the United States needs them as a buoy in the far east against China.

    Realistically most people wouldn't even notice whether it was China's or America's government that was in control. Everyday life is pretty much the same. You get up, eat, go to work, have some family time when you come home, and then go to sleep. The government does not interfere with everyday life. You can't speak out against the government as freely, but most people don't do that anyways.

    Realistically, it wouldn't really effect me.

    I mean seriously CG, have you actually ever lived in China or visited recently? Its that different from here for the average Joe.
     
  19. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Lightforged Draenei Ghost Agent

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    However, you cannot research on something that relates to a certain date on 1989 as well as the Dalli Lama.

    I used to work with co-workers who were Chinese immigrants and heard stories about the PROC, they really do not like the censorship and the atrocities that the PROC has done.
     
  20. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Well, I don't research tiaman square or the Dali Lama every day. Those are not day to day activities. And please, Tibet was a very brutal theocracy before the CCP took over, its not like they got any worse off.

    Most immigrants don't care and most of them are actually quite favorable of the PROC.

    I go there and stay there every so often. Most of my family lives there. The internet censorship is annoying, sure. But overall, not a huge difference.
     

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