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China

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by BenchBreaker, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Chieftain

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    Maybe its random but the AI is doing pretty bad as China since the latest science change

    All their bonuses basically translate into high population but now science has been removed from population should they get some additional mechanics that are more interesting?

    something along the lines of culture assimilation or vassalage/city states tributes would be be fitting

    like depending on your cultural influence you could demand tribute without or with less consequences

    or foreign cultures gets assimilated (somehow), there were major incidents in history where China was conquered by Mongols and Manchus but they were simply assimilated into the Chinese culture in the end

    so maybe if they lose cities they still get the culture from that city as long as it was originally Chinese
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    China have been doing poorly since the removal of their old UB, but the science-change certainly isn't helping them.
     
  3. dylansan

    dylansan Chieftain

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    It's a shame because I really enjoyed their mechanic the last time I played.

    I haven't seen a specific thread to discuss whether removing science from population was the right solution. Personally I'm still not sold on it and China is a good example of why.
     
  4. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    Call me crazy but I really like the science change at first glance, although it needs to be tuned a bit for sure. And China would indeed need some science buff, either from UA or from UB.
     
  5. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Chieftain

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    With population not being what it used to be, the Paper Maker should definitely make a return, providing stronger science then the Tea Pavilion accordingly, at the cost of the food emphasis.

    Edit: Should still be food based on population though, to tie in with China's population focus.
     
  6. dylansan

    dylansan Chieftain

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    Maybe all China needs is something to reassociate population with science. Add some science per x citizens to their UB so they're still all about growing but it actually benefits them.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The science change was absolutely the right way to go. We're still balancing it. Remember that people hated the happiness system for the first few months.

    G
     
    Babri likes this.
  8. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I think you're really exaggerating that part. I remember a lot of people being confused, and complaining about things not working properly (which they weren't, so that's fair), not actually hating the system. I mean no one liked the vanilla happiness system anyways, it was way too bland.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Really not. The amount of PMs I got from users complaining about it was staggering (just FYI, a lot of users that don't want to post publicly message me personally when they have questions or concerns).

    G
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Whatever, hopefully you come around to see the error in your ways, until then this thread is about fixing China :D


    I don't remember how the Chinese UB looks anymore, it used to be a science food building and then it got changed to a (really weak) culture science building, did it get changed again now when the the science got reworked?
     
  11. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    Agreed. China was a cradle of civilization, they deserve science and high population :D Question is how to combine them. Maybe Paper Maker (or Tea Pavilion) could give science per population? It would synergize well with their UA (just as sir dylansan said).
     
  12. Sun Pope

    Sun Pope Chieftain

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    According to the Wiki, Tea Pavillions actually give 1 science per 4 citizens in a city. I haven't played or looked at China in-game recently, so this might not still be on the current patch.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    That's still what it does. People stating that it is not a good UB are simply not reading the civilopedia. You'll have a per-pop science UB well before anyone else.

    G
     
  14. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    That's really unfair to say. The building comes really late and the only difference between it and a normal operahouse is 1 science/4pop, no baseyields, no earlier unlocks, no speicalists, it is probably the most underwhelming UB in the game.
     
  15. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Chieftain

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    True. Plus the Paper Maker was a very early building since it was a Library replacement. That early science would be a pretty good buff to compensate for losing science from population (though the effect might have to be toned down accordingly).

    Edit: Now that I think of it, the Paper Maker would logically make a better early Chancery replacement than Library replacement. At the very least it would provide paper or provide points for Great Diplomats.
     
  16. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    Agreed with JungleBucks and Funak here.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'm reluctant to make a UB off of a non-standard building (Chancery = CSD), as I'd have to maintain two UBs for China.

    We can move it back to the library slot if desired, now that Assyria no longer holds the spot.

    G
     
  18. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Chieftain

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    Good point Gazebo.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I don't think it is necessarily in a bad spot as an opera house, but the benefits from it are completely underwhelming.
     
  20. PurpleMentat

    PurpleMentat Videographer

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    I honestly find China underwhelming these days. Arabia's UA has displaced everything I liked about China. Until you get through most of Aesthetics, the most reliable way to trigger the UA is to chase Great People, and Arabia actually has a bonus to Great People.

    I don't have anything constructive to add here. Just that, every time I've thought to play China recently, Arabia got played instead. China's UA can't really work off Historic Events without a complete overhaul, and the bonuses from Great People feel lackluster compared to Arabia.
     

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