China

[azum4roll]

I'd just remove the capital +1 / and see how it performs. Turn 1 culture makes a huge difference.

 

[crdvis16]

Mandate of Heaven
3and a WLTED in all cities every time you gain a city, and 1 when you produce a great work. Bonus halves on era change. +10% during WLTEDs.

Removing the culture is the right call. China's design is overshadowed by having absurd early game culture. She was good at literally everything, with a ton of OP combinations with pantheons or stupid build orders.

I'd give the paper maker more culture. 1 culture per 4 citizens would be cool. You use the UA to grow and the UB rewards you for it. I don't think gold is very thematic to the imperial examination.

I think these two could both work fine if we want to keep a little bit of culture flavor for China.

I'd really not prefer the random yields suggestion, though.

 

[chicorbeef]

I posted this in the New Version thread, but I'll post it here in hopes of it getting discussion.

Some people were throwing out the suggestion to just have the Capital's +1/ bonus removed. I think that wouldn't be enough personally, but it was an idea.

Any ideas for China's UB then? Because I think the UA is still mostly early game and the one thing that keeps China interesting mid-game right now is the UU. Carthage has a solid UNW as well, one that I'd argue is probably better than the Paper Maker.

One idea I have for the UB is to remove the +1 base and +1 per 4 and have it instead come with a of Writing that triggers the UA.

 

[crdvis16]

I posted this in the New Version thread, but I'll post it here in hopes of it getting discussion.

That seems like cool synergy. I imagine the historical paper maker had some cultural/writing tie ins such that this makes some thematic sense too? I know very little about Chinese history

 

[pineappledan]

I mean there’s a crap ton of great works of Chinese writing that don’t necessarily have to be classical era specific.
I really like that idea, by the way. The trick would be to make the paper maker feel different enough from the burial tomb. The other problem is that GWs of writing are themeable in classical amphitheaters, while artifacts have to hold on until industrial to get themed. So GWWriting are way stronger than artifacts. It may be that, because the utility of GWWs is too great, it would be impossible to balance.

 

[chicorbeef]

I mean there’s a crap ton of great works of Chinese writing that don’t necessarily have to be classical era specific.
I really like that idea, by the way. The trick would be to make the paper maker feel different enough from the burial tomb. The other problem is that GWs of writing are themeable in classical amphitheaters, while artifacts have to hold on until industrial to get themed. So GWWriting are way stronger than artifacts. It may be that, because the utility of GWWs is too great, it would be impossible to balance.

The biggest difference is that Egypt gets +5/ from Artifacts. China would get , and WLTED from these .

It might be hard to balance with the UA is what I'm thinking, recieving , and WLTED in all cities with every Paper Maker built might be a bit too much. I like the idea in general though. The era decay should help balance things too.

 

[CrazyG]

1 gold per 4 citizens should go, I think that's clear. Its boring, and was basically a placeholder to make the building unique without actually being strong.

I live in China, and I really think her bonus should be culture related, not gold. The history is riddled with economic problems, but this country has always been a cultural juggernaut.

I mean there’s a crap ton of great works of Chinese writing that don’t necessarily have to be classical era specific.
I really like that idea, by the way. The trick would be to make the paper maker feel different enough from the burial tomb. The other problem is that GWs of writing are themeable in classical amphitheaters, while artifacts have to hold on until industrial to get themed. So GWWriting are way stronger than artifacts. It may be that, because the utility of GWWs is too great, it would be impossible to balance.

You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.

 

[Gazebo]

1 gold per 4 citizens should go, I think that's clear. Its boring, and was basically a placeholder to make the building unique without actually being strong.

I live in China, and I really think her bonus should be culture related, not gold. The history is riddled with economic problems, but this country has always been a cultural juggernaut.

You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.

I'd be fine replacing the gold with culture as a per-pop scaler. It'd be a decent culture steroid, but not so early that it skews the early game.

The problem, however, is that even nerfed China still dominates most games I see her in, and I just don't know why exactly.

G

 

[pineappledan]

You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.

All great points. I had forgotten about the ramifications for GWs and GAs

I'd be fine replacing the gold with culture as a per-pop scaler. It'd be a decent culture steroid, but not so early that it skews the early game.

I think it would be a great addition; China would become the premier thick civ that wants to grow have many cities that are all decently large in order to get the most from the UA. As you say, it would also add a bit of wiggle room to make the Paper Maker a bit more special.

Spoiler v2.0 China change proposal :

Mandate of Heaven
+1 Food and +1 Culture and a "We Love the Empress Day" in all cities every time a City gains its 8th Citizen or produces a great work. Bonus halves on era change. +10% Food during "We Love the Empress Days".

Paper Maker (Library)
+2 +1
No Maintenance
1 Scientist slot
-1 Illiteracy
1 Specialist does not generate Urbanization
Internal Trade Routes to or from this city provide 20 on Completion, scaling with Era.
+1 and +1 for every Great Work in the City

Remove +1 for Great Works from Seowon

• If there is going to be a switch to a population scaler then there is no need for a trigger on conquest anymore, since conquered cities will provide boosts by growing like any other city. If possible, a good way to prevent exploits would be if the number of times a city has grown could be tracked independent of its actual Population. So, if a city has its population reduced via starvation/razing, it will still give the 1 boost when it grows for the 8th time.
• I think moving the YieldsToGreatWorksLocal boost from the Seowon to the Paper Maker makes sense. China has more direct synergy with GWs than Korea does. Maybe something else could be added to the Seowon to compensate, but I honestly don't know if it's needed. The Seowon is already a pretty powerful building without the GWs bonus
• The way normal ITRs work has been changed, but the code for the old function still exists. It can be re-used now as a unique mechanic for a civ. Adding a bonus to ITR completion on China encourages players to focus on a strong internal economy, rather than pursuing international trade. Should help make China feel more closed off for role-play purposes.
• I don't know what to do with the old +10% Gold during WLTEDs. It was a fairly powerful boost, but Paper Maker comes so early I never understood why the UA wasn't simply +10% during WLTED instead of delaying this boost for 5 techs at the start. With the change to a pop scaler, the lag on the 10% would be even less noticeable. IMO it would be more elegant if it were moved onto the UA, but I think it could be dropped entirely as well.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd be fine replacing the gold with culture as a per-pop scaler. It'd be a decent culture steroid, but not so early that it skews the early game.

The problem, however, is that even nerfed China still dominates most games I see her in, and I just don't know why exactly.

G

Maybe defacto permanent WLTKD is more powerful than we realized, especially with various bonuses added in.

 

[chicorbeef]

You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.

If China's kit was balanced overall, this wouldn't be a bad thing, right?

 

[CrazyG]

Okay I'm rereading these bonuses, China is most comparable to Carthage, and the better civ overall. Carthage might be better in ancient era, especially if your luxury is a fishing boat, but China's economy is overall stronger and the UU is way better.

The problem, however, is that even nerfed China still dominates most games I see her in, and I just don't know why exactly.

The people who think old China wasn't that good were living in a fantasy, she was incredibly strong. Changing culture to gold is a nerf, but not a huge nerf, and the patch made food way more valuable, which she has a lot of. The paper maker isn't that weak, its just boring. Extra food starting on turn one indirectly gives culture if she takes tradition or progress.

Maybe defacto permanent WLTKD is more powerful than we realized, especially with various bonuses added in.

I honestly just forgot that WLTKD was even part of the bonus, the culture just outshone everything, even strong bonuses like these.

I think it would be a great addition; China would become the premier thick civ that wants to grow have many cities that are all decently large in order to get the most from the UA. As you say, it would also add a bit of wiggle room to make the Paper Maker a bit more special.

I think G is referring to the paper maker here, not the UA. Your suggestion for the paper maker is weaker than the current version, its a library with fluff added, the numbers are so small. In Renaissance with 5 trade routes, you still only get 12 science per turn. 2 yields on great works isn't very noticeable.

I think the UA could just give pure food. +1 food from settling cities/great works/whatever and WLTED begins. The paper maker can be totally redesigned to become interesting, and her culture source. Some ideas:

• A great work of writing is extremely strong, just a library with a great work and nothing else is a great UB. (China's other tools are stronger than Egypt's).
• A great writer point or two could be give a similar flavor, while being more easily balanced. If we want to get really crazy, it could have a writer specialist instead of a scientist.
• Culture on births?
• Give culture per population (bear in mind it will always round down).
• Base culture (it already has 1)

 

[Rekk]

If we want to get really crazy, it could have a writer specialist instead of a scientist.

I can't believe my mind is blown with such a simple change.

 

[pineappledan]

I think G is referring to the paper maker here, not the UA.

You're right. Re-reading his post, it's clear he wasn't talking about my UA proposal. I guess I jumped the gun

Your suggestion for the paper maker is weaker than the current version, its a library with fluff added, the numbers are so small. In Renaissance with 5 trade routes, you still only get 12 science per turn. 2 yields on great works isn't very noticeable.

Well, first off, the current Paper Maker is actually pretty darn strong, it's just not very interesting. +10% in all cities during WLTED is pretty much just a permanent +10% in all cities. It's just not very eye-catching, and doesn't boost anything you weren't going to do anyways. This is why we added diplomatic bonuses in 4UC, because it didn't feel like China's kit gave it anything specific to do besides grow like a boss, fill its guild slots, and maybe conquer opportunistically.

My numbers are small, yes, but they could simply be made larger. Not sure on your math though; isn't it even worse than that?
Renaissance = 60 in 2 cities, so 120 after 20-25 turns for TR completion, so more like 6 per turn? So maybe it should be something like 40 on ITR completion?

A great work of writing is extremely strong, just a library with a great work and nothing else is a great UB. (China's other tools are stronger than Egypt's).

After sleeping on in, I don't think there's a good way to balance adding a free GWW to every city 1 tech before amphitheaters.

A great writer point or two could be give a similar flavor, while being more easily balanced. If we want to get really crazy, it could have a writer specialist instead of a scientist

My experience with adding GPPs to buildings is that it's fluff outside the capital, but for a GWAM it would be fluff outside the 3 guild cities. You can add a couple points for flavor, but they won't really affect balance.

Culture on births?

I'd avoid this if possible, unless complemented with something really unique. Yield on birth are already given by Council and University, so giving library an instant yield on birth would homogenize the building line, and would fail to stand out as a unique mechanic.

 

[HungryForFood]

Mandate of Heaven
3and a WLTED in all cities every time you gain a city, and 1 when you produce a great work. Bonus halves on era change. +10% during WLTEDs.

I like this suggestion, since it pushes the culture quite a bit later. And not having the WLTED trigger for both conditions will help with the permanent WLTED.

 

[Stalker0]

If we took culture off the UA, couldn’t we just shift it to the paper maker? I mean paper was a huge cultural tool, so flavor it makes sense. It also delays the culture bonus and makes the UB more interesting. Seems to hit all of the needed changes.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

If we took culture off the UA, couldn’t we just shift it to the paper maker? I mean paper was a huge cultural tool, so flavor it makes sense. It also delays the culture bonus and makes the UB more interesting. Seems to hit all of the needed changes.

I think that's a good idea.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

If we took culture off the UA, couldn’t we just shift it to the paper maker? I mean paper was a huge cultural tool, so flavor it makes sense. It also delays the culture bonus and makes the UB more interesting. Seems to hit all of the needed changes.

You mean, swapping the culture bonus for gaining a city or GW with an ability of the paper maker?
Something like:
UA: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 in all cities and starts a "We love the empress day". Bonus declines each era by 50%. +10% Food and Gold during "We love the empress day"
UB: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 Culture in this city. Bonus declines each era by 50%. +1 for every 4 Citizen in this City. -1 Unhappiness from illiteracy.

This would push the culture part a bit behind, even more than the idea of removing the trigger for the capital.

 

[black213]

You mean, swapping the culture bonus for gaining a city or GW with an ability of the paper maker?
Something like:
UA: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 in all cities and starts a "We love the empress day". Bonus declines each era by 50%. +10% Food and Gold during "We love the empress day"
UB: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 Culture in this city. Bonus declines each era by 50%. +1 for every 4 Citizen in this City. -1 Unhappiness from illiteracy.

This would push the culture part a bit behind, even more than the idea of removing the trigger for the capital.

I really like this suggestion!

 

[pineappledan]

Hmm. So now the bonuses on WLTED are in 1 place, but the raw yields are split between the UA and UB. Couldn't we do this?

UA: Creating Great Works or gaining cities starts a "We love the empress day". +10% Food and Gold during "We love the empress day"
UB: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 and +1 Culture in this city. Bonus declines each era by 50%. +1 for every 4 Citizen in this City. -1 Unhappiness from illiteracy.

Then you only have to say the thing about declining by 50% each era once. It's much sleeker this way, and only a bit weaker.
IMO the 1/4 could be done away with completely in favor of something else. Maybe 25/ on ITR completion, or some other bonus that isn't just a pop scaler.