Chinese stability survey

[Leoreth]

Okay, Linkman's stability maps spawned another discussion about which tiles should be in China's historical area and which shouldn't. To make the terminology clear again:

Historical: yellow and light green
Ahistorical: orange and red

That's the important difference when it comes to stability.

Now, in my opinion there are two aspects worth considering when debating which regions should be historical.

1) Which regions were held by that civ for a considerable period of time in actual history.
2) How their stability performs when they do hold these regions, depending on their historicity.

Now most of the arguments I've heard focus on angle (1), not so much on (2), which I regard as more important in the end. We had a long time with people complaining China survives Mongolia's assaults for too long, that's not the case anymore (also due to the reduced stable areas). So what I'd like to do here is gather some information on (2).

Please report if China collapses in your game: the year it collapses, the scenario you're playing, if the Mongols have just conquered them and how much their territory actually extended into the now ahistorical border provinces.

 

[civ_king]

Tibet 1641-1912, much longer it spent in China's sphere of influence

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

This is a good reference to start from.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/54-general-maps-of-chinese-dynasties/

There are some general gaps but if you look on Vietnam's history page on Wikipedia,
you'll find that they have no less than four separate periods of Chinese domination.

Also, if we are basing stability areas by civilization and not nation,
then that opens up a whole new can of worms, especially after referencing the Arabian stability map.

 

[Leoreth]

... I'd like to keep the discussion away from historical arguments. The point of this thread is to collect ingame evidence of undesirable stability performance.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

I think you confused (1) and (2) in your initial OP. That's why you getting the wrong kind of feedback.

 

[Leoreth]

Darn, yes, sorry. Corrected.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I would love to test this myself but I simply don't have very much time anymore;
if this doesn't go through before the release of 1.8, would you append some changes to their map during the 1.9 SVN version?

 

[Leoreth]

If I get some conclusive evidence by then, sure.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I found some time to run two tests so far.
Both as America 3000BC and Viceroy difficulty + Normal speed.



In the first screenshot, they've been completely rolled.
Apparently, they had a revival sometime in 1500 or so and then collapsed again about 20 turns later.



In the second test, they were able to survive after their resurrection but they're shaky right now.
If I'm not mistaken, they're at war with the Mongols again and doubtless are going to get rolled soon too.

The Chinese don't really expand too much now that their map has been even more heavily nerfed.
They'll sometimes flip Lhasa or take Dunhuang and sometimes attack Corea, but other than that, they can't go anywhere.
They really need a stability buff now.

I can run a couple more tests later, but I mean, even looking through the OMG threads,
Asia and mainland China are well overwhelmingly foreign into the modern age.
There are few images where China is still alive, and if they are, they're usually quite unstable.
I'll copy some of those images for this thread, but I'm sure you've seen them already.

EDIT: On another note, the Indian rebirth is pretty messed up right now, I'd look into that too.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Originally posted by Kubko: (check the minimap on the first one)





Originally posted by myself:



Originally posted by Akbarthegreat: (check the minimap)





Originally posted by Synapce:



It's across a couple versions, but most of them are recent;
I hope that's conclusive enough, tell me if you need more evidence.

 

[Gem Hound]

That last one is awesome.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks. By the way, who's controlling the Philippines in your first two screenshots?

 

[Linkman226]

Looks like Japan

 

[Gem Hound]

Looks like Khmer or Arabia. Japan own Taiwan.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Leoreth, Arabia is controlling the Philippines in my first two screenshots.

 

[Kcawesome]

I really think a Mongol force collapse would prevent all the Mongol domination games.

 

[BenZL43]

[OOT]
I'd love to see Khmer built Qui Nhon more often like in one of these screenshot

 

[BenZL43]

I really think a Mongol force collapse would prevent all the Mongol domination games.

Death of Temujin event might work
You know, RFC is undoubtedly awesome in spawning new civilization, but pretty terrible with collapsing them.. especially if the civilization is Human taken into consideration.. --"

 

[Qiu]

Death of Temujin event might work
You know, RFC is undoubtedly awesome in spawning new civilization, but pretty terrible with collapsing them.. especially if the civilization is Human taken into consideration.. --"

Temujin died even before conquering China

 

[BenZL43]

Oopps.. I mismatch the fact between Mongol attack of Europe and Downfall of Mongol
Wiki said that mostly the fall of Mongol is because :

1) Revolt to Independent states
2) Plague
3) Lithuania & Poland

What do you think, Leo?