Chislev Module

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Alsark, Jul 14, 2018.

  1. Alsark

    Alsark Noble

    Jul 10, 2006
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    With this latest revision, my Chislev module has been added in, so I wanted to make a topic to cover its aspects in full. You may use this thread for discussion of the module, reporting bugs, or making suggestions.

    There’s a lot to cover here, so if you want the short version: I’ve added six leaders, complete with Pedia entries, unique diplomacy text, and music. One of those leaders uses the new dynamic trait system. I’ve added elections and several other features to the Tribal Law civic that allows you to change your leaderhead, and I’ve added some new units and buildings. This module should give the Chislev an early and mid-game boost. Yes, I know their late game isn't strong, but I don't feel like it should be. Some civilizations are orientated towards certain stages of the game, and I believe the Chislev should have more of an early/mid-game focus.

    Tribal Law Civic

    Many of the new additions are locked behind being in the Tribal Law civic that is unique to the Chislev. This makes their once lackluster civic a great option, at the expense of not being able to use any of the other government types.


    Unless you're playing as "Ther Council" leader, then under the “Tribal Law” civic, players will have an election every 45/60/90/180 turns, depending on their game speed. The player will be presented with seven options: one for each tribe, a random tribe of the five, or a “don’t have an election” option, which results in one turn of anarchy and is pretty much only useful if you want to stay as Absaroke or Natane within the Tribal Law civic.

    Selecting the tribe options will elect the leader of that tribe (the leaders are shown on the next page). If you’re already that leader, selecting that tribe again will result in one turn of anarchy (unless you’re Shimasani) and a 50% chance of a positive bonus:

    • Eagle Tribe: +3 relations with all other leaders
    • Coyote Tribe: Great Bard
    • Bear Tribe: Great Engineer
    • Serpent Tribe: Great Commander
    • Tortoise Tribe: Golden Age

    Voting for the “fair election” option will lead to a “We Love the Head Chief Day”, and if the randomizer picks the leader you already are, it will prevent the anarchy that would normally result from manually picking the same leader twice.

    New Tribal Law Leaders

    Each leader is complete with their own Pedia entry, diplomacy text, and music. I’m no writer, so if my Pedia entries are garbage, feel free to send me something else.

    Shimasani (Eagle Tribe), +2 relations from all other leaders:
    • Charismatic, Trader
    • Neutral Good
    • Same AI as Ethne
    • AI goal: peaceful, very friendly, trusting, doesn’t build many units

    Soyala (Coyote Tribe), +2 relations from male leaders:
    • Creative, Pioneer (new trait: double production speed for settlers and workers, Mobility I for settlers and workers, settlers have +5 strength/-60% city defense)
    • Chaotic Neutral
    • Same AI as Rivana (but more friendly)
    • AI Goal: Opportunistic

    Motsqueh (Bear Tribe):
    • Industrious, Expansive
    • Lawful Neutral
    • Same AI as Verocchio (but increase wonder construction, less isolationist)
    • AI Goal: Likes to build, wonder-focused

    Osyka (Serpent Tribe):
    • Aggressive, Raiders
    • Neutral Evil
    • Same AI as Jonas
    • AI goal: War-like, holds a grudge, builds lots of units

    Alosaka (Tortoise Tribe):
    • Philosophical, Defender
    • Lawful Good
    • Same AI as Einion, but more isolationist
    • AI goal: Isolationist, cautious of others, builds lots of units

    Absaroke and Natane will be used when the player is not using the Tribal Law civic (or if the player chooses not to hold elections under Tribal Law). Switching away from Tribal Law will prompt an event asking the player which of the two leaders they would like to play as.

    All leaders will prefer Fellowship of the Leaves since it effects alignment the second least after Council of Esus (which doesn’t fit the Chislev).

    Unit Tribe Mechanic

    The tribe mechanic assigns a tribe to each of your units. If you train a unit in a source totem city (explained later), the unit will be from the tribe of that totem. If you’re using the Tribal Law civic, then all non-source totem cities will randomly assign a tribe to all produced units. If you’re not using Tribal Law, and you trained a unit in a non-source totem city, they aren’t from a tribe. While using Tribal Law, each tribe is tied to a specific promotion (explained below). The prerequisite tech need not be unlocked, and if the unit would already acquire that promotion for free from some other means, it is automatically bumped up to the next level. If not using Tribal Law, the tribe system’s only benefit is through the Idol promotion, explained later.


    The Menawa, or “Great Warrior”, is a unique national unit available to the Chislev at the Conquest technology. When built, it offers the player a choice of which tribe they would like for the Menawa to come from, each imparting a unique benefit. The Menawa will start with that unique promotion in addition to the tribal promotion from the tribe mechanic.

    Eagle Tribe

    Units gain: Mobility

    Menawa gains: No terrain movement cost, +1 movement

    Coyote Tribe

    Units gain: Drill

    Menawa gains: +10% withdrawal, +100% pillage gold, 10% chance to do 5% to enemy stack, 10% chance to avoid bad lair results

    Bear Tribe

    Units gain: Combat

    Menawa gains: +1 strength

    Serpent Tribe

    Units gain: City Raider

    Menawa gains: Attacks the weakest unit in the enemy stack, 15% chance to generate a slave

    Tortoise Tribe

    Units gain: City Garrison

    Menawa gains: +10% defensive strength, counters “target weakest unit”, x2 fortification bonus

    Totem System

    The totem system represents a small collection of ancestral and religious tribes that operate under the larger entity that is the Chislev nation. When you construct a totem building, referred to as a source totem, it will automatically create replica totems of the same kind in all cities up to 4 tiles away (diagonally and/or orthogonally). Any other cities founded or acquired in that range will also receive a replica totem. There is a one turn delay in this propagation. Replica totems do not propagate other totems. If a source totem is lost, then all replica totems will also be lost. Source totems are national wonders, but, like your capital, it may be moved, bearing in mind that any replica totems that would leave the range of the source totem will lose their totem. Totems come in two flavors: tribal and religious. In both cases, if you have a source totem or a replica totem in a city, you cannot build a new source totem of that same type. So a city with a Totem of the Eagle (source or replica) could not build a Totem of the Bear, but could build a Totem of the Earth. Source totem cities represent the heartland of a tribe. Replica totem cities represent a trickling down of members of that tribe, and as a result, a city is only as limited in its number of replica totems as dependent on the city's positioning. Both ancestral and religious totems require three Totem Workshops in your empire before you can build them.

    The Council Leader

    • Neutral Neutral
    • Same AI as Arturus (but less isolationist, less gold/Runes of Kilmorph focused)
    The Council uses the new “Dynamic Trait” system, for which there will be a new button at the top left of the main interface. How this works for The Council is that you will compete for the favor of the five tribes. Many in-game actions will have some effect on what the tribes think of you. Your tribal standing will slowly decrease with all factions over time, so you must constantly work for their favor. However, while there is a floor of 0 favor, there is no ceiling, so you can bank up points to make it easier. The goal line to earn a trait is 1000.

    If you want to know exactly how much favor each action provides, and what each trait does:

    Spoiler :

    Eagle Tribe

    • +1 happiness/city
    • -10% XP needed for unit upgrades
    • +25% commerce food and production from trade routes
    • +2 relations with all other leaders

    Gaining Favor: +10 per turn with the Foreign Trade civic, +100 making peace, +200 constructing Totem of the Eagle, +100 building that gives happiness, +200 building that gives area happiness, +300 building that gives global happiness

    Losing Favor: -10 per turn at peace, -30 per turn at war, -50 starting a war

    Coyote Tribe

    • +1 culture/city
    • +50% Production speed for Settlers and Workers, Mobility I for Settlers and Workers
    • Dance of the Coyote Promotion for Recon Units: +5 culture from killed units, +10% withdrawal chance, +1 attack strength, removed after combat

    Gaining Favor: +10 per turn with the Liberty civic, +200 founding cities, +50 on population growth, +150 on culture growth, +200 constructing Totem of the Coyote, +150 popping a goody hut, +100 exploring a lair, +30 pillaging

    Losing Favor: -20 per turn

    Bear Tribe

    • +3 health
    • +25% wonder production
    • +1 production on plots with 3 production

    Gaining Favor: +10 per turn with the Industry civic, +50 constructing any building, +250 constructing a national wonder, +1000 constructing a world wonder, +100 constructing a building that gives health, +200 constructing a building that gives area health, +300 constructing a building that gives global health, +200 constructing Totem of the Bear

    Losing Favor: -20 per turn

    Serpent Tribe

    • Free Combat I promotion
    • +100% gold from pillaging, and pillaging modifies culture by +150%
    • +10% production from population hurry

    Gaining Favor: +10 per turn with Conquest civic, +150 acquiring a city through conquest, +30 killing a unit, +30 killing an orc unit, +30 pillaging, +200 constructing a Totem of the Serpent

    Losing Favor: -30 per turn at peace, -10 per turn at war, -50 making peace

    Tortoise Tribe

    • +50% great person birth rate
    • Combat does not influence cultural borders
    • +15% science while at peace

    Gaining Favor: +10 per turn with the Scholarship civic, +30 training a unit, +50 killing a unit within your own borders, +300 having a great person born, +200 constructing Totem of the Tortoise

    Losing Favor: -10 per turn at peace, -30 per turn at war

    Funeral Pyre

    When a unit of level 5 or higher dies in a stack where you own either a Spirit Healer or a Shaman, the Spirit Healer or Shaman will automatically acquire a promotion called “Bones of the Exalted”. They may light a Funeral Pyre, consuming the bones, to give all eligible units in the stack the Morale promotion. The bones may also be passed onto other Spirit Healers and Shamans.

    Tribal Idols

    Idols are essentially little magical charms that can be purchased by Shamans/Mages/Archmages and Spirit Healers in totem cities. The purchasing unit must match the tribe of the totem in order to purchase the idol. So for example, a Bear Tribe Mage can purchase a Bear Idol from a city that has either a source Totem of the Bear or a replica Totem of the Bear.

    These idols act as the spirit guide promotion just for units of their specific tribe. That means that, if the unit carrying the idol dies, a portion of their experience will be passed onto a random unit from that tribe.

    Chislev Spirit Affinity

    All Chislev Disciple Units, as well as the Spirit Healer, Shaman arcane line, Menawa, Windtalker, Warchief, and Meskwaki, all get the Chislev Spirit affinity. This affinity provides these units with +5% heal rate, +0.5 XP from combat, and +0.5 strength per spirit mana.

    New Buildings

    • Totem Workshop:Replaces Artisan's Workshop. Only provides 10% production instead of 15%, but is available at Crafting and is cheaper to produce. You must have three of these in your empire before you can build any totems.
    • Totem of the Bear:+2 healthiness in the city. Grants the Strong promotion to units built here (+1 strength). Your workers start with Hardy I, unless they would already start with Hardy I, in which case they start with Hardy II.
    • Totem of the Coyote:Grants +2 culture and +2 food to the city.
    • Totem of the Eagle:+2 happiness and units build here start with the Sentry promotion.
    • Totem of the Serpent:+2 XP to units built here, and they start with the Orc Slaying promotion. -50% war weariness in the city.
    • Totem of the Tortoise:+10% city defense, +2 GPP. Enemies suffer +5% war weariness. Units built here start with the Magic Resistance promotion.
    • Totem of the Earth:Replaces Temple of Kilmorph. +4 gold instead of +2, and provides +2 production on peaks. Arcane Units built here can cast Shield of Faith and Earth's Bosom, and start with +10% hills attack and +15% hills defense.
    • Totem of the Flames:Replaces the Ashen Veil temple. +1 commerce on desert and flames tiles, +1 production on flames tiles. +2 production instead of +2 science. Arcane Units built here can cast Ring of Flames.
    • Totem of the Frost:Replaces Temple of the Hand. +1 food on tundra, +1 production on taiga. Arcane units built here can cast Summon Frostling and Stasis Curse.
    • Totem of the Jungle:Replaces Temple of the Leaves. +1 food, production, and commerce in Jungles. +4 health instead of +2. Arcane and Recon units get +30% strength and double movement in jungles. Arcane units built here can cast bloom, reclaim the jungle, and summon tiger.
    • Totem of the Sea:Replaces the Temple of the Overlord. Provides 5 culture instead of 3. +1 food on water tiles. +15% naval build speed and +2 XP to naval units. Arcane units built here can cast Tsunami. Must be built on the coast.
    • Totem of Enlightenment:Replaces Empyrean Temple. +4 and +25% science instead of just +10% science. Double training rates for Disciple and Arcane units. Arcane units can cast Revelation.
    • Totem of War:Replaces Temple of Order. +2 land unit XP and +10% land unit production. -25% war weariness. Arcane units built here can cast Bless.
    • Canoe Harbor:Replaces Harbor. Only gives 25% trade route yield, but is cheaper and gives a static +2 food boost.
    • Warchief’s Harbor:Requires 3 Canoe Harbors per Warchief’s Harbor. +10% production to sea units, +2 XP to sea units, 1 trade route, +50% trade route yield
    • Tribal Watchpost:Replaces Lighthouse, but does not need to be on the coast (but still allows Great Lighthouse if built on the coast). +1 food on plains tiles, +1 trade route, +5% city defense.
    • Warchief’s Security Council:Requires 3 Tribal Watchposts. +10% city defense, +10% land unit production, +2 recon unit XP, 0.25 recon unit XP train rate

    New Units

    • Menawa:Already described above.
    • Tomahawk Thrower:Replaces Axeman. Is basically an archer combined with an axeman: has a ranged attack, a first strike, and a chance for a defensive strike.
    • Mounted Plains Hunter:Replaces Horse Archer. Has one less base strength, but has +50% strength in grasslands and plains, +50% against animals and beasts, and has a higher ranged strength.

    Other Changes

    • The Totemist (basically the same as the Shaman) now replaces the Adept for the Chislev, and the Chislev are blocked from building the Mage Guild.
    • I’ve explicitly blocked out the Catacomb Libralus, the Great Library, and National Epic for the Chislev. Their required buildings were blocked off, so this has no effect, but it was causing world builder issues for me without them being blocked.
    • Blocked out the Bear Totem and Totem of Old Enemy totems, as they were merged into the other totems.
    • I made the selection sounds for the Chislev Native American instead of Aztec because, for one, why wouldn’t they be, and two, the Malakim already use Aztec.
    • Reduced the cost of the Rock Raven by five (which still makes it cost five more than a normal hawk).

    What I Need From You

    This is a beta, so I need help testing and balancing the module. If you see any mistakes, even little typos, please let me know, because even the little things are important to me. I have not tested out all of the diplomacy text on leaders, so if something looks out of place there, let me know. If you have any suggestions on any aspect of this module, I’m all ears.

    Also, I didn't do any testing from the time the module was added in as an official module; so I'm not sure if anything may have broken as a result of that.


    • Black Imperator: He has been a huge help in this, implementing DLL changes for me on the fly. This wouldn’t at all be possible without him. I’m extremely grateful not only for that, but that he continues to keep Ashes of Erebus alive and well.
    • Paradox Interactive and CivFanatics Forum User Walter Hawkwood: Walter Hawkwood converted buildings from Europa Universalis 3 into Civilization, which I used for this mod.


    Unfortunately so much of this art has been uploaded as uncredited work on Pinterest, but I’ve done my best to track down the source of each piece of art in order to provide credit where its due:


    Outside of Shimasani’s songs, all music was taken from the Total War series:
    • Shimasani: Ah Nee Mah “Sun Circle” (clipped)
    • Soyala: Medieval 2: Total War “Inca”
    • Motsqueh: Empire: Total War Warpath Campaign “Eagle Totem”
    • Osyka: Empire: Total War: Warpath Campaign “Rip Out My Beating Heart”
    • Alosaka: Empire: Total War Warpath Campaign “Menu Theme”
    • The Council: Empire: Total War Warpath “Dream Sky”
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
    black_imperator likes this.
  2. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    very nice modmodmod :D

    very cleverly built.
    about tribal workshop : if you made it saying "totem X needs 3 tribal workshop", you will need 3 tribal workshop for totem X, and 6 for 2 totem X (which is not possible as you said they were national wonders) : will we need 6 tribal workshop to build 2 totems : 1X and 1 Y or do we need only 3tribal workshop to allow : 1 totem X, 1 totem Y, 1 totem Z...etc

    what happens when a city is at the confluence of 2 (3?/4?) source totems ? will they get 4 replica totems ? will we get a choice "your city is under influence of multiple source totems, which replica totem will you follow ?"

    you wrote that "if not in tribal law AND if not with a source totem in city your unit will have no tribe (and conversly, if in tribal law and no source totem in city: random tribe): what about replica totem : do they enable to assign a tribe to unit or are they "randomly assigned tribesmen" ?

    question about totems :
    what can be done if you have more than 5 nodes of cities or wildly (edit: removed "wilding") separate cities (one will have many totem-less cities) (I'm thinking mid-endgame) ?
    and religious totems.. it seems sad that they are limited in number: I think most cases it will be ok, but in some cases, (archipellago map : you'll want many totem of the seas, but are allowed only 1 so only 3-5 cities (max) with any bonus.)

    (maybe chosing a religion gives +2:mad: to non-selected totems, but allow non-national wonders versions of the selected totem? (still need 3 totems workshop : so 6 for 2 sea-totems ); and removed if sate religions is changed) (a work around : "acolyte of seas, 2mvt, "worker unit, walk on water, can be used for fishing boats", quits if religion changes, 0str, autocast "totem of the seas": spell that give the "small totem of seas" in coastal cities; 0 upkeep cost , "small totem of seas: same bonus as totem of seas, but dispelled if caster is not in city")."

    It seems the Coyote Menwana synergize much with the traits of the serpent tribe (getting a raider-like promotion)

    may you precise the bonus the units get if they already already have a mean to get combat or something ? like serpent tribe is aggressive, so whole civ get combat 1 for units, what does a bear-tribe unit get ? (they should get combat 1 from tribe, and combat 1 from civ-trait)

    question: the Warchief : may he join a tribe ???
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  3. Alsark

    Alsark Noble

    Jul 10, 2006
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Thanks for your post! I'll try to answer each of your questions, but I must apologize in that I actually haven't touched this module for a few months, so my memory is hazy.

    1) The idea was either 3 workshops for 1 totem X, 1 totem Y, 1 totem Z; or it may have just been 3 total for everything. I'm having a bit of trouble getting a test game going to answer properly... but if it ends up being +3 workshops after every totem, regardless of type, then that isn't intended.

    2) Yeah, you want to have a city that has a bunch of source totem cities around it. That creates a sort of "super city" that will have a lot of replica totems, and therefore a lot of bonuses. The problem with this is that placement is tricky.

    3) Replica totems have no bearing on a unit's starting tribe, whether in Tribal Law or not. I had kind of wanted to do something like "your tribe is a random selection of all of the replica totems in the city if there is no source totem"; but I'm not much of a coder, so I wasn't sure how to do that without making a really long if/elseif mess. Anyway, the idea of the Tribal Law civic is that the tribes have bonded into a sort of democracy, similar to the Iroquois Confederacy but more centralized; so it still makes sense for tribal members to pop up wherever.

    4) If you end up with a large empire, you're able to shift your source totems around, so that will help move your frontier (the Totem of the Coyote, in particular, is meant to be moved around). The way I've built the Chislev in this module, though, is that they're not meant to go very "wide". Sure, Civ 4 is all about going wide, so it's something different. But if it ends up feeling weak, maybe I could give them an ability to build a second set of totems later in the game.

    5) I'll be honest - I only ever play on continents or Erebus World, and hadn't even considered other map types when designing this module. Archipelago or other small land masses would be pretty disadvantageous to this design. I do like your idea of allowing extra totems of the main religion, though to be honest I was leaning more towards making the Chislev Agnostic (but only after some other buffs, since losing a main religion would be huge). I think the idea of a Totemist religion, where each tribe worships a totem, and each tribe has different beliefs, is better fitting of the Chislev than having a unified religion. I'll have to give that all some more thought.

    6) Yeah, so when designing the factions I did want them to synergize a bit with each other in different ways. The Coyote Tribe are opportunistic and mischievous, whereas the Serpent Tribe is more just straight warlike. Still, they both have fight in them. Although I did go more of a creative/frontier expanding route with the Coyote Tribe in other ways, I wanted to reflect their guerrilla-tactics in their promotions and Menawa.

    7) I've tried, whenever possible, to stack bonuses. So in this example, if your leader is Osaka, but you build a unit in a Totem of the Bear source city, then your unit is starting with Combat II (and +1 Strength from the Totem of the Bear). Another example is Alosaka (Tortoise Tribe)/Absaroke. The Defender trait gives Hardy I to workers. The Bear Totem also gives Hardy I to workers. So those workers start with Hardy II. If you find there's a combination I've missed, let me know and I'll fix that - the bonuses should always stack so that they're not wasted... unless that ends up being really OP.

    8) Yes, the Warchief unique commander unit is always randomly assigned a tribe. Meskwaki, on the other hand, is always from the Bear Tribe.

    I hope that addresses your questions. Feel free to offer counterpoints/other suggestions.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    thanks for the answers... that's great.

    I'll try a game of this soon (within the month I think... but I don't have much play time)

    a question:
    you said that totems could be swapped : is it possible to "swap" a totem in a place where there is already a totem ? or do you need first to swap it out before building the new totem in city ?
    : ie: you have totem of bear in capital, but now you want totem of coyote :
    is it possible to build ToC instead of ToB ?
    or do we swap the totem of Bear with the Totem of Coyote built in another city (like the Austrin swap entire cities) ?
    or do we need to build ToB in a new city to remove ToB from your capital, then build ToC in your capital ?

    regarding "adding more source totems" if you are becoming "wide" :
    Spoiler :
    What about opening a secondary subset of source totems linked to different tier IV-V techs:
    Spoiler :
    (ie: 5 (or11 for taking the religious?) new totems, also as national wonders, competing with the other totems (still forbidden to stack), they could need (much like the tower of mastery) that the 5 initial source totems are built, or even they might need to have more than 15 (or 20) cities?, or need that both the summer palace and winter palace are built... etc

    - Second Totem of Bear : Mithril working (linked to strength)
    - Second Totem of the coyote : Astronomy (link with easier exploration)
    - Second Totem of the serpent : Military Strategy
    - Second Totem of the Eagle : Arcane tech (the one with Archmages)
    - Second Totem of the Tortoise : Construction (or engineering) : (linked with the city defending status)
    alternative idea :
    Open, with techs, the creation of New tribes, and thus totems...which are more adapted to a fantasy world and reflect such new world:
    Spoiler :
    modulo : cannot give promotion the Menawa, need tech/features in city for building it, cannot govern the civilization:
    - Ice-Bear Tribe (aspected bear): need ice terrain in city, need tracking, "special action" of a "polar bear" (or need dancing bear in city ?):
    - Drake tribe (Magical serpent) :
    - Elephant/Mammoth tribe (plain-tortoise ;) ):
    - Gryphon Tribe (magical Eagle) : need
    - Giant Spider Tribe (magical equivalent of a coyote ;) ):
    - Treant tribe
    issues: you need to think of 5 new city effects, 5 new "on unit built" promotions, 5 new "unit of the tribe get"

    Alternative idea: a mix thereof
    Spoiler :

    Allow "lesser totem of X" to be built in any city without any totem, after certain condition are met : such totem have same effect as source totem but do not extend a new replica totem in nearby cities:
    - a civic ? & a global tech (feudalism?) / a tech for each kind of totem / a building or terrain requirement per totem
    an advanced tribal civ will enable tribes to found offshots far away...
    ex : lesser totem of bear : need a mining ressource in city fat cross (iron, mithril, copper, gems, charcoal), and iron working
    lesser totem of eagle : need peak in city, and honor
    lesser totem of serpent : need Military strategy, need jungle or desert or plain in city fat cross
    lesser totem of tortoise : need river or sea in city fat cross, need armored cavalry tech
    lesser totem of coyote : need trade & a stable in city
    all lesser totem need either feudalism tech or city states civic or the tech that enable liberty ...etc

    and for religious totems it might be possible to do the same :
    Spoiler :

    either open 1-2 secondary religious totems for the main religion,
    or open one lesser totems per religion only when key techs are opened (techs thematically aligned with the religion.)
    other idea :
    I know for example that when you have the elohim trait, building "local" buildings, Your Elohim Palace is destroyed when you build a Calabim Palace in another city, formerly Calabim) : would that be possible to do with "religion" instead of "former civilization" ? (have the different "Duplicate totems" be "religious variants" of the same building.
    Thus, it would allow to build a second totem for 1 religion (not enough IMO, but still already a pace in the right direction)
    ie: if you try to build the Duplicate Totem of Law... (while in Order religion) it removes the "Duplicate Totem of Water" that was already built in another city when you were of the OO religion?
  5. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    So I started a game... and here are my comments.
    as a side note, many of my previous "ideas" are in fact non-applicable (for example, because tribe-totem are already spread around the tech-tree...)

    I haven't advanced much, ( 3rd city is just built) but already some things.
    I like the tomahak warriors (axemen).

    some things I thought would happen but didn't :
    - I didn't see the Chislev spirit affinity on warchiefs (in civilopedia)
    - I couldn't access / see the effect of the "tribe" on units in civilopedia (save that it gave a spirit-guide-like promotion)

    The civ doesn't feel like an early-mid game civ, but a mid game civ, with some mid-game-like bonus only arriving late game.
    Indeed, most bonus arrive in tier 2.5-3 techs :
    the tribal law civic is far away in tech tree (tier 2.5).
    the totems are spread out in the tech tree, all but one on tier 2.5, tier 3 or even tier 4 techs.
    it is easier to get the religious totems than to get the normal Totems.

    totems already need at least 3 cities with a medium cost building (totem workshop) : so you need 80+ turns before your first totem (that is enough of a limitation IMO)... but you only have access to coyote totem.
    then to make use of it, you need tribal law, which is about 2 techs further on the tech tree.
    eagle and bear are on tier 2.5 (tracking and smelting)
    tortoise is a tier 3 tech (sorcery)
    serpent is a tier 4 tech (rage)

    so my "vision"... to get a more "early mid game" feel : allow totem earlier.
    maybe eagle @ hunting (tier 2)
    bear @ bronze working (tier 2)
    tortoise @ sailing (or arcane lore ? tier 2 or bowyer ? (tier 2.5)
    serpent @ fanaticism (tier III), or @ poison (tier 2.5)
    and coyote could be earlier, @ exploration (but mysticism is ok)
    tribal law should be earlier (mysticism : it is a more "chislev" civic than god king)
    (or maybe they could start with tribal law.. but if they change to something else they need the current tech ? )

    what do you think?
  6. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    once again a comment :
    religious totem do not allow to build acolytes... it's hard to extend the religion & get the replica totems of religion
  7. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    further feedback as game progresses:

    - I find that getting the warchiefs is harder than what I have memory of (maybe because no war with another civ yet ?).
    - I find that having mage & spirit healers come at the same tech is clustering (maybe have spirit healer come at priesthood ?)
    - I find that not having means of spreading religion is a BUG.
    - I find that totems / access to tribes come a bit late to have a "rightfull" impact.
    - I find that totem/tribal law (chief changes & tribal effect on units) help a lot to develop your civ in mid-game if you play safely / no conquest... But they come a bit too late if you want to play an early game and wide. (example : the bonus to settlers (coyote tribe leadership) come only after reaching code of law... (for reminders, Calabim start to get their bonus at CoL, Iron, and sorcery, like Chislev but they are tailored to be an end-game civ)
    - I find that Menawa is strange / too late ? they come at military strategy (which is tier III) and their bonus is "only" the same as having been born in the city with the totem... (unless they keep the totem-city bonus and get the special menawa one on top?) : otherwise they feel like a slightly improved champion (spirit affinity..)... but they are on another tech line so they don't synergize with finding / developping copper/iron weapons.
    --> what about having them come at warfare ?
    - secondary totems are a bit underwhelming (no effect on the built unit, and the global effect can be a bit bland compared to the religious totems).
    - I find that the max damage cap of tomahawk thrower is too low (3 ranged attacks from T thrower to reach cap is healed by next turn by the ennemy unit)
    - the Plain watchtower effect is HUGE, and fun... so the chislev synergize with sun mana... to scorch all wetlands and grasslands into plains...(and I have the problem of having too much food in most cities ... hahaha)

    that said it's a fun building game for the moment : many UB + building (and sometimes moving the totems).. not much time for attacking, especially as tier II units are bland, and I especially lacked copper, so no early copper-axeman attack.
  8. Alsark

    Alsark Noble

    Jul 10, 2006
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Thank you for your insight! I apologize that I am getting back to you so late. I got most of my Civ4 work done during downtime at my job, but that is no longer possible. I've also just had a close death in the family, which led to a bunch of other stuff, so my time has been extremely limited. I'll work your way through your posts here; but please let me know if I've missed anything (also, it has been a bit since I worked on this module, so I apologize that my recall isn't great on this):

    1) Swapping totems: I'd need to test again since it has been awhile since I built the module, but I think how it works is you can only built a totem in a city without any totems. If this is the case it would be pretty cumbersome to move, say, a Totem of the Bear into a city that currently has a Totem of the Coyote, since you'd need to move the Totem of the Coyote into a new city, and then build the Totem of the Bear in that city. I'll double-check on that when I have a moment. Ideally you'd still be able to build the Totem of the Bear even if you have a Totem of the Coyote, but it would then replace the Totem of the Coyote.

    2) Building wide: Thanks for those suggestions! Implementing a new set of tribes would probably be a bit too much work if I want them to feel "complete", so I'd probably do something along the lines of your first suggestion - making a second tier of each totem that would be unlocked later. I can then move the tech requirements of the current totems back to the recommendations that you described.

    3) Chislev spirit affinity: I'll try to see how I can get that in the center promotion page without it being an available promotion to pick.

    4) Effect of the tribe: Same - I'll try to see how I can get that in the center promotion page without it being an available promotion to pick.

    5) Totem building requirements: Yeah, I could definitely shift back the requirements on building the totems. The reason the Totem of the Serpent was so late is because it was a direct replacement of the Totem of the Old Enemy. That said, I'm wondering if I shift all of the requirements back, if I should also be reducing the bonuses.

    6) No Acolytes: I think my idea was to make it so that the totems would increase the religion spread on their own so that acolytes wouldn't be needed. This would simulate more of a word-of-mouth spread and would keep the religions closer together, but this idea doesn't make much sense as it's not as though you get to pick your holy city if you founded the religion. So I agree, acolytes (or some means of manually spreading the religion) are needed.

    7) Warchief buildings: Hm, I don't believe I adjusted the number of buildings needed; just that I've added some different types of warchief buildings.

    8) Mage/Spirit Healer: Yeah, probably a good idea - thanks.

    9) Tribal Law: Yeah, I could bring that back to come a little earlier.

    10) Menawa: The Menawa do get both the tribe bonus and the special Menawa bonus, and the tribe bonus matches whichever tribe you picked for them (so even if you built them in a Coyote city, they should be bear tribe and have the bear tribe Menawa bonus if bear is what you picked for them). The thing with the Menawas is that it's supposed to give you a couple of options depending on what you need at the time. I have them set in the XML so that they should still be able to benefit from having up to tier 3 weapons; so while getting them may be a bit out of the way, I'd be worried if I made them come earlier they'd be too powerful if you bee-lined for them. A bear tribe Menawa would have 6 (base) + 1 (bear Menawa bonus) + 10% (bear tribal bonus) strength, plus the bonuses for any weapons you may have and for their Chislev spiritual affinity. Let me know if you agree/disagree.

    11) Secondary totems: By secondary totems I'm guessing you mean the tribal ones. So the religious ones are pretty good because they're replacing temples - so they're upgraded temples since you're limited in how many you can build. Since the tribal totems are an addition, rather than a replacement, it would probably make the Chislev a little too OP if I matched the power levels of the religious totems.

    12) Tomahawk range damage: Thanks - I'll match it with the archer cap (25%).

    13) Plain watch tower: Would you say it's too powerful, or should I leave it as is?
  9. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    thanks for taking time to read.
    And condolences for your loss...

    I have now played a bit more and can tell the following (answers/comments to your points) (+ others)
    1) I don't remember exactly, but I need a new city without "any totem" before being able to build alternatives (ijn the Bear totem city I can't build any coyote totem...etc, In my capitol (no totem city, but 4 secondary totems, I can not build a main totem).
    Maybe it could be made such that replica totem removes the possibility to build other main totems (because you are already within influence of a main totem) while main totem doesn't remove the possibility : because building a new totem would swap the totems.

    2) Building wide: anything would be good :currently it is difficult : playing on large map, I already have 4 mains totems (not the serpent one), and the Doviello started a war with me... I've got an issue as I cannot extend tribes to the new territories...

    Indeed, I might be able to remove my "concentration" of totems in my core area, and open a bit the area covered with totems.. However that would disrupt all my city specialisation : I built the Warchief’s Security Council, Shaman Council (that give +2xp to arcane), and National epic, and at least 1 Religious Totem ...etc in a Main totem city, to focus the xp-gains and building speed of units with the Promotions for Units built in totem city... (double effect for Arcane units). So moving the Main totems around will complicate everything.
    (this specific point may be solved in point 11)

    but anyway even with solving this building issue, I would still have issues with taking over a mid-game empire (and putting tribes there).
    (In large map, earlymid-game empires (there was no major war, so all starting civ are present, and each colonized most availble wildland) each empire is of about 5-12 cities, with a mean at 8-9, for reference I have 0 tier IV units, and 3 tierIII units ranger/mage/champion + menawa, and ennemies have 1-2 tier III unit types : ranger/ champs or ranger/Longbow) so really the middle of the mid game.)

    So mid game, I have built an empire of 12 cities, with 4 totems, covering 9 cities with tribal totems or replica totems, and 3 without any totem (capital with 4 replicas, +1 per other totem, due to terrain issues (water / peaks) or other civ borders (if I didn't multi-cover my capital, I could get at most +2 cities covered due to geography).
    if I want to gobble up 1-2 neighbors I'll have to absorb 10-16 cities... which I cannot do even if I spread out all my totems, I'll have an empire of 22-28 cities, but only 12-15 covered by tribal totems.

    I think it is important to find a way to increase to coverage by totems (especially tribes, but maybe also religious).
    a pool of +5 other totems, (allowing for replica totems), or buildable mini-totems, or even maybe increasing the range of the main totems (leaving you with the choice to get cities with 1 main +1/2/3 replicas if the totems were built prior to range-extension or widen the empire)

    for religious totems, maybe the extension of totems could be proposed to "state religion totem" (which would be removed, or not, if you change state religion). (maybe those extended totems could be weaker than the main (current) ones)

    3-4) as you find easier to code

    5) Totem requirement: I don't know about reducing their bonus. The tribal totem bonus are not so big, and you usually only have one per city : they are hard to stack. (maybe have the replica totems have smaller bonus?): as expressed below (point 11) ) the main aspect of totems is the tribal aspect, and the "unit-bonus". Anyway, I find it important to have the totems earlier, Chislev are supposed to be an early-mid game civ.

    6) I noticed that the Totems do not spread religion... and more than that : they can't spread religion in cities that already have a religion... (so that limits a lot the spread of later religions, especially to the cities that are close to it: having the possibility to build the acolytes, at least in the city with Main totem, would be really important)

    7) warchief buildings : I have no question there.

    8) yes, spreading spirit healer / mage (shaman) would be good : I don't know if Priesthood is the right tech or if medecine would be best (I really don't know)
    If priest hood : maybe (but no real issue here) Spirit Healers could have either of : Chaneling II (to learn tierII spells of the spell spheres they learned as totemists) OR ability to cast the Religious spell when originally from a city with religious totem (currently only limited to mage)

    9) Tribal Law : yes please...

    10) Menawa : I have now the 4 of them, and they are GREAT... so maybe there should be no major Balance change.
    Only "negative" aspect is that they are in a non-synergic line with metal weapons...
    for example I made a bear tribe Menawa in the Bear Totem City, and got 6+2 str (+iron weapons)... but a same champion in bear city is 6+1+2 : so the difference of Menawa vs Champion is "only" 1str. (+spirit affinity, which I haven't seen the effects)
    An Eagle Menawa in the Eagle city got "+2mvt, lower cost, Sentry Promotion", "only" +1mvt than Eagle champion. So I deleted him and build him as a Eagle Menawa in Bear tribe city : +1str, +2mvt lower terrain cost.
    So they are effectivly slightly stronger than Champions... if you have access to same totems and same weapons (copper/iron/mithril) & mastersmith.

    However in the progression of the game, unlocking menawa is about as costly as unlocking champions...and while more versatile, is not as strong.
    targeting to unlock Menawa only gives you Menawas (and maybe a Warchief if lucky) : so 6+1str unit (max, for a bear menawa)
    Targeting to unlock champion gives you
    -tomahawk throwers (on the line)
    -+1 str or +2 from bronze or iron weapons
    -bear Totem : +1 str for any unit in Bear city (which you don't have for Menawas if you targeted only Menawas)
    -+1str from copper/iron armor with a master smith
    --> so you get your first tier III units : champions with 9-10 str if built in bear city with armor (instead of first tier III unit menawas at 7str)
    Beelining menawas after tomahawks throwers instead of before is not as damaging but you still miss out the Bear Totem, and the iron weapons that give you 10str champions compared to 8str bear menawa (if you were lucky and got copper weapons)

    So I still think that they could get a slight bonus (not something OP, but a slight boost)
    (no real ideas, but maybe some random ones) : can cast a spell ? can have a small leadership (1 unit?, with 1 free leadership promotion) (no other leadership improvevement, but transfer of xp is nice... and especially if any leadership promotion from a Warchief would cascade to the menawa's sub-unit) (but maybe that's too much like the bannor caporal promotion) ? +10 withdrawal ? ...etc, start with 1 free promotion ???
    maybe other ideas ?

    11) Secondary totems : I meant the "replica totems" :replica totems are not strong enough with regard to main totems (tribal) : the most important effect is the "free promotion" .. which is not given to units built in replica totems cities...(be it religious totems or tribal totem)
    The in-city bonus of totems (main and replica) are interesting but only so much. As you said, they are an addition, and thus not really strong for the cities (which is good).
    However the main point of the tribal totems is the bonus to units built in city with a Main totem... and that creates a Huge focus for building units: it is 100 times more important to build a unit in the Bear totem city or Tortoise city than in any other city due to the +1str... or free magic resistance... I think there is some re-balance to do here. (serpent city I cannot say , as I don't have serpent totem).
    I'd propose that the mechanics be "re-balanced" (maybe with reduced bonus? if necessary), but that it applies to all totems, replica or main (same for the religious totems). (It would be better for playability).
    Spoiler proposition :

    3 aspect to take into account IMO :
    units (military) free promotion : tribe vs built-in city with totem
    workers/settlers : tribe vs built in city with totem
    city effect

    military units : I can think of 3 scenarii :
    -the "free promotion" applies to units build in city with main totem and in all cities with replica totems... (but in that case the mechanics needs to be changed : units built in cities with multiple replica totems have to "chose" which replica totem present in the city will bless them : either random choice, or active choice (box like the menawas), or linked to the Tribe the unit is assigned to, if the tribe corresponds to one of the replica totems in place.
    -give the "stronger promotion" to the tribe, and the "totem in city" gives a "weaker" promotion (it is the case currently for Eagle tribe): so the impact of building in the Bear city versus the "muti-tribe" city is reduced. (Strong> combat 1 / +1mvt > Sentry / Coyote Need something > Drill / City Raider >> Orc Slaying (which is ultra weak) / City Defense > Magic Resistance) :
    In fact I think that the whole point here is that Bear Totem city >> Bear Tribe, and that Coyote Tribe effect is too weak.
    -the "stronger promotions" are a "free to get promotion" (like the crew promotions), available for "buying" only in the Totem city, and only to units of the tribe... whichever city they were first built in...

    In conclusions I'd say that the simplest way to get it "less frustrating" would be the following;
    - change bear tribe effect to "strong" and bear totem city effect to "combat I" (no more Eagle Menawa in bear city for +1str +2mvt... but that's a small cost) : all Bear menawa would get +2str, independantly of the city you build them... and you won't need to have the Bear totem (smelting) to get menawa to +2str
    - Change Coyote tribe (drill1 is super weak: 1 chance for FS... ) at least give it Drill II:
    --> Coyote tribe get Drill 2, and Coyote totem city gives Drill 1 (so coyote tribe in coyote totem city get drill I&II).
    and the rest should be mainly ok.

    Workers/ Settlers
    - Bear : I'd remove the "hardy in city with totem" : and give them increased production rate
    - Eagle is Ok : free mobility for tribe (Sentry in totem city is ok but not game-breaking)
    - Coyote is about expansion... I'd go with giving "15% withdrawal" to Settlers and workers
    - Serpent is about war : I'd give "hidden" to settlers / workers : so they are not bothered by invaders
    - Tortoise is about defense, I'd give workers the hardy promotion

    bear : strong + combat 1 from bear+bear totem is great as is (however if bear tribe is combat 1, combat 1 alone is worth nothing on a 0str unit)
    eagle : nothing : mobility (+sentry) is great (how does it synergize with a coyote tribe leadership : +1mvt to settler / worker?)
    coyote : workers get 1st working promotion (improved efficiency at work)
    serpent : hidden
    Tortoise: hardy

    cities :they are ok as is.. or maybe boost the main totem, and keep replica totem as the current totem : examples
    • Totem of the Bear:+2 healthiness in the city (+ 1Hammer for Main totem)
    • Totem of the Coyote:Grants +2 culture and +2 food to the city. (+ 2 culture : total +4 for Main totem)
    • Totem of the Eagle:+2 happiness (+ 1 teleport per turn for Main totem : not OP, capturing gryphon & pegasus allow it)
    • Totem of the Serpent:+2 XP to units built here -20% war weariness in the city. (-30% war weariness: total -50% for Main totem))
    • Totem of the Tortoise:+10% city defense, +2 GPP. Enemies suffer +5% war weariness. (+10% GPP for Main Totem)

    12) Tomahawks : Great : otherwise tomahawk thrower did not enough damage to have it worthwhile

    13) Plain watch tower. ... they are good (a bit OP, but them, Warchiefs and tribal-totemed Menawas are the only real edge the Chislev get) (and you don't get the +1 on water tiles....)
    I'm a bit split : on one hand it is a great building, which, as for Malakim or Lizardmens, Illians, Doviello or Elves(which can build in forest) allow to have big cities and a developped country even in their-thematic terrain, with a great effect, on the other hand, it is (slightly) OP, and leads to want to terraform all into plains... even at the cost of not having the bonus from the Religious Totems (Nature gives bonus on jungle... but it stay worse than a plain-forest with watch tower / Ice totem boosts tundra which is worse than plain / Fire boosts deserts, which stay worse than plain... etc)

    I think that on the whole, it is OK, (+1F is great and allow for stronger cities... but not bigger cities than what is found in grassland;.. only greater production as you get grasses with +1H.... ) However that's exactly like the ELVES which have FORESTS on all tiles (+1H, +0.5health)(and I'm not even speaking about the Mazalt Jungle Bonus).. so not really OP, especially as you have to build the plain watch tower to get the effect, and cannot hyperboost starting cities, and have to dedicate some totemist to do a lot of terraforming.

    However, the sadder point for me, is that you will still want to terraform your jungle even in cities with the Nature totem or terraform the desert / tundra in cities with the fire / Ice totem
    Spoiler :
    so I think it would be interesting to boost even more the terrain bonus for the religious totems, so you get incentive to terraform toward "religious terrain" around your cities with religious totems.

    --> You'll note that I don't have big ideas for the terrain-boost issued from religious totems.. save from giving BIG bonus to terrain from the totems... otherwise we don't want to keep the "boosted terrain".. even without Plain Watch Post...
    not when spring (water I) and scorch (sun I) can move those terrains to plains, and those spells are often obtained earlier than discovering the religious techs for the religious totems + being less than 4 tiles from a main religious totem + having the religion spread automatically.
    (the PWP... only tiltes the field a bit more in favor of having plains everywhere)
    • Totem of the Earth:Replaces Temple of Kilmorph. +4 gold instead of +2, and provides +2 production on peaks. --> OK
    • Totem of the Flames:Replaces the Ashen Veil temple. +1 commerce on desert and flames tiles, +1 production on flames tiles. --> change: +1F+1P+2C (+1F+2P+3C on Flames) but only +1P on flood plains : desert should be interesting when there is the totem of flames, especially as you CANNOT build improvements in the desert (1F1P1C is still worse than a "normal" plain with any improvement... save for oasis)... (conversly, maybe units could get a +1xp per desert tile ??? : that would give you the choice of keeping desert or removing it ; or a flat "+1culture per desert tile" ? )
    • Totem of the Frost:Replaces Temple of the Hand. +1 food on tundra, +1 production on taiga. (+2F tundra, +1F+1P taiga--> otherwise tundra is the same as a plain with the watch post... wheras you'll want to keep tundra in Frost-totem cities)
    • Totem of the Jungle:Replaces Temple of the Leaves. +1 food, production, and commerce in Jungles. +4 health instead of +2. (1F1P1C should be good : it gives a total of 2F1P1C on flatlands and 1F2P1C on hill: equivalent to plain-forest : (1F2P) or 3P on hill-plain-forest without the Plain WatchPost, (knowing that forest gives a hidden 0.5health, while jungle gives a hidden 0.5 UNhealth) but worse once the PWP is built:2F2P or 1F3P respectivly)so maybe: 1F1P2C on jungle ? (2health +0.5health per jungle instead of +4health ?).
    • Totem of the Sea:Replaces the Temple of the Overlord. Provides 5 culture instead of 3. +1 food on water tiles. +15% naval build speed and +2 XP to naval units.(good one, especially if joined with +1P Wonder ....)
    • Totem of Enlightenment:Replaces Empyrean Temple. +4 and +25% science instead of just +10% science. Double training rates for Disciple and Arcane units. (maybe a +1science per desert & peaks & ICE in BFC : powerful, but only for desolate lands )
    • Totem of War:Replaces Temple of Order. +2 land unit XP and +10% land unit production. -25% war weariness. (no terrain bonus)

    other (new) remarks (might not be bugs):
    a) I got my first warchiefs (1st war with another civ started in the 300turns...) : as they is "spawned" they don't start with a tribe (and neither with a built in totem city bonus)
    b) Recruited units (from warchiefs) do not have tribe promotion

    c) World spell, which summons units in cities with Warchief’s Security Councils, summons tribeless units. (even while I made sure that the Warchief’s Security Council were all in Main Totem cities)
    d) Strangely my World spell did not summon any champion nor chariots, (only rangers, hunters, horsemen, tomahawk throwers and archers), even when I could build champs and chariots in all cities (and even when "recruit" from warchief, gave, within the stack of recruited units some champions.

    e) you mention Shamans... I never got Shamans... My Totemists upgrade to Mage (which seems strange lore wise: my tribal totemist upgrade to a robed mage :) )

    f) Palace Mana : spirit is Of Course... Depending on your view on Plain Watch Tower, I'd say that Sun Mana would be important for Chislev, otherwise getting to the divine tech becomes a must, but could be ok.

    g): On totems, I'd go with a bit wider spread : 5 tiles instead of 4.... 2 cities with Fat crosses not mixing are 5 tiles apart (both for tribal and for religious).

    h) Upgrades of units: It would be great if Spirit Healers could upgrade to Tier III/IV religious units : Eilodon, Paladin, Druid....
    further, I'm partially wanting to have Menawa upgradable to tier IV units : at least to immortals, and maybe to Phalanx knight or Berserker (like champions)(or maybe tie it to tribe ??? Serpent-Menawa to Immortal or Shadow, Bear to Immortal or Berserker; Eagle to Immortal or Knight (or Marksman?), Coyote to Immortal or Beastmaster, and Tortoise to Immortal or Phalanx...
    (I'm saying Partially, because for the moment, with only aspected mana on maps, I have only 1 spirit mana and couldn't see the effect of spirit affinity... which might convince me that Menawa are worth it even late game.... maybe, if Menawa can upgrade to more than immortal, the spirit affinity could be lost on upgrade...)

    i) Mounted Plains Hunter: I have not built any yet, and I will try to build some asap, just because they are a UU. However, I'm not sure of their strength... Sure, 50%animal/beast is strong, and 50%in plain grassland too, but 5 str is low.. especially when compared to a base 7str Chariot (5/4+iron-weapon) (HA are already a niche unit due to slghlty low tierIII str, but with a str of 5 it's really low), so I'm unsure of the role that these Plain Hunter would have...
    maybe if they had blitz ? (I love blitz, and while it is often OP, I think that maybe, for a low base-str tier III unit it might be balanced, and it would allow to fire ranged multiple times or range-fire and then attack in same turn), maybe compensate with a -20% vs cities ?

    j) Unit Values : The AI thinks I'm weak... I think that the str of "totem-enhanced" units and especially of Menawa is underestimated by the AI : I have many champions at 10 str (6+1(bear)+2(iron) + 1(iron armor from master smith)), and Menawas at 10 or 11str... (not counting my rangers @ 11str : bear tribe, elephant blood, spider blood, poison blade)...
    I don't know where the "danger level" is calculated, but maybe something could be done (maybe there is a value to increase in xml, either for the promotions (strong..etc) or maybe only for Menawas ??)

    k) Tribal council : I didn't see the effect of "affinity" : I don't know where to monitor the rise and fall of such affinity : so for the moment I'm playing without it.

    l) Dance of the Coyote : it would be ok if applied every turns that you are with the Coyote tribe leadership...

    m) I'm not sure Coyote tribe leadership gives +1culture.. (maybe), but at least it gives "cities start at cultural level 2" ... which is great !
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  10. azatote

    azatote Chieftain

    Jun 4, 2016
    I've played only one game with the Chislev so far, but here are a few comments on how I felt them.

    - I find tribal totems already strong enough. The main ones give significant bonuses, but it's alright given that it's difficult to stack up replica totems. A second set of totems being available in late game (at tier 3.5 technologies like arcane lore, feral bond, astronomy) would be nice indeed.

    - About the generation range of replica totems: I like that it is low so that if you want to optimize the benefit of your totems, you need your cities to be close to each other and overlap their range. However, a range limit of 4, while it would work fine if the world was an endless plain, is very penalizing in Erebus where there are many mountains and you cannot place your cities wherever you want. A range of 5 would be too much (it would mean your city ranges don't need to overlap anymore), maybe create the replica totems in all cities at a distance strictly lower than 5?

    - I agree with your proposal to make the tribal totems come earlier and the spirit healer at priesthood. As for tribal law, mysticism might be a bit too early (it's the second tech you will research in the game). I agree that code of law was too late, as you want to get a few useful techs like hunting before rushing it. I suggest education as a compromise, so that you can rush it if you want to, but it's slightly costlier than mysticism and gives you few benefits besides tribal law itself.

    - As for religious totems, their bonuses are already strong. Indeed, they're not making unproductive terrain (desert, taiga/tundra) become very good, but it comes as a bonus, the other terrain types staying as good as usual. I don't recommend you to increase these bonuses on terrain yields, unless you add debuffs to other terrain types as well. For the jungle FoL totem, I suggest a slight debuff on forests (-1 hammer and/or -1 gold) in any case, so that the Chislev really prefer jungle to forest. Reducing their access to terraforming spells might be interesting too, so that they cannot transform every tile to plains and need to adapt to the local climate by building the appropriate totem.

    - The tribal watchpost effect is powerful but not OP on its own. As I said just before, its main issue is that you're tempted to terraform every tile to plains.

    - As for units, I'm fine with the menawa as it is. It's a really good tier 3 unit with a real late-game potential. True, the weapon upgrades need another tech branch, but that's not so big an issue. I agree with the tomahawk thrower update. The mounted plains hunter is weird, powerful on plains and grassland (which are the most common terrains) but weak elsewhere. Anyway, as Calavente said, horse archers aren't likely to become the backbone of your army, and this UU is no exception. The rock raven and the 6-attack warchief are still really powerful units; I strongly recommend you not to make the warchief easier to get.

    As a general feeling, I find your Chislev very enjoyable to play with. I love the tribal election mechanic, the numerous new mechanics, UB and UU give them a very unique gameplay. There are still some balance and gameplay issues, but nothing too penalizing, and the updates you're planning are already correcting most of them. Congrats and thanks for your amazing work, and please keep going!
  11. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    @ azatote :
    I can relate to all what you said, save for religious totems.
    (NB I don't see the difference with <5 and up to 4...)

    the "city-benefit" of religious totem is big, but it's barely worth being bared from building temples in any city you want.
    the "religious spell" for arcane is good but also barely a consolation for concentrating the source of your religious spells to one city, and needing to wait for the totemist to upgrade.
    (the real boon is that you get simultaneously religious spells of all religions) ; but IMO it is largely balanced by getting no priests and thus no Command I-II units, and having no access to High priests, with no tier IV religious spells.

    so what remains as "interesting" in Religious Totems is the "terrain bonus", which IMO make the thing fun : trying to match the religious totems to the adequate terrain.
    and IMO the terrain bonus is too weak : they give bonus for terrains that are so desolate that even a boost is not enough.
    frost and jungle bonus allow to reach (barely) the worth of Plains... (which in most normal game is not a real interesting terrain for cities due to low food), and the Plain watch post makes it that even for tundra and jungle, you'll want to switch.
    frost and fire do not make the terrain taiga and desert worth to keep, even without the PwP.
    Maybe Seas (or jungle) could boost wetlands/marshes ?

    it seems like the religious totems are only useful for "early colonization" of un-hospitable terrain... but that is contary to needing the religion to spread, and the costly religious tech

    last point :
    Warchiefs, I noticed only recently that generals could get 2 +0/2str promotions.
    maybe Warchiefs could get access instead a +20% or a +1/1 str ?

  12. azatote

    azatote Chieftain

    Jun 4, 2016
    What I mean with the <5 distance is that when a city is located for example 4 tiles north and 1 tile east of another, assuming that the calculated distance is the Euclidean one (must be checked), it is sqrt(17); higher than 4, but lower than 5. Same for a diagonal three-tile distance of sqrt(18). Making the distance <5 rather than <=4 would make both these layouts work for totem replicas, which is already a significant change; but 5-tile distance with no workable area overlap wouldn't work.

    Agreed with giving higher terrain bonuses to religious totems, but only if you're forbidden to terraform terrain; so that you really need to adapt to your climate. Otherwise, it is rather pointless. It's true that even with mages being given access to religious spells, it's not as powerful as having priests. Why not giving these spells to spirit healers instead? Also, why are spirit healers melee units rather than disciples?

    As for warchiefs, I'm not sure. it would make sense indeed, but I fear they would become too powerful melee units.
  13. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    @ azatote :
    I see..
    I always considered that 4 tiles north and 1 tile east is "4 tiles" , because it is in the 9*9 grid centered on the main Totem city... I though that it works for how the current replica totems are assigned... but I'll have to check.

    re-terrain : the issue is that terraform to plain is an lvl 1 spell... and removing it would be a big hurdle, rendering sun and water unuseful for chislev.
    maybe a passive terraform spell in those cities ?
    (for example : fire: low chancegrass-->plain-->desert,
    frost : low chance grass/plain--> tundra (or taiga?? )
    jungle : low chance plain-->grass(jungle)-->wetlands
    (but in that case jungle totem needs to improve wetlands
    and desert needs to be better yet than what it is currently.)
    thus : you CAN terraform, but the cities with such religious totem will have a hard time staying with only plains : either constant terraform or submit to the local terrain.
    (if the chance of auto-terraform decrease with the number of already-in-place desert/jungle...etc, it would be even better, to still allow mixed-terrain cities)

    but IMO that only if those terrains, with the totem are "on par" with at least a plain (respectively forested plain), and in case of desert, taking accoung that desert has no improvement.

    warchiefs :
    for earlygame it could be "game-breaking", but mid-late game, a str6 unit is worth nothing... they cannot even attack combat2 hunters !!!
    so maybe the promotion could be unlocked @ Military Strategy ?
  14. Alsark

    Alsark Noble

    Jul 10, 2006
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Let me start with my changes thus far (not yet uploaded):

    Balance Changes:
    - Tomahawk Thrower damage cap changed from 20% to 25%
    - Tribal Law Civic moved from Code of Laws to Education
    - Eagle Totem moved from Tracking to Hunting
    - Bear Totem moved from Smelting to Bronze Working
    - Tortoise Totem moved from Sorcery to Knowledge of the Ether
    - Serpent Totem moved from Rage to Fanaticism
    - Coyote Totem moved from Mysticism to Exploration
    - Spirit Healer moved from Sorcery to Priesthood, changed from melee to disciple
    - Totem of the Flames now gives +1 food and commerce to Oasis tiles, in addition to its other benefits

    - The promotions granted by the religious totems now allow a Totemist to spread religion

    I'm still going through things. I'll probably upload my changes after I tackle the "easy" stuff, then will try to focus on the harder stuff. Unfortunately my Python knowledge has left me since I developed the module, so getting back into the meatier stuff will be tricky.

    1) Okay, so I remember how the totem moving works now. The totems are basically national wonders that can be replaced - essentially the same as a palace. So, like a palace, it will move the main totem to wherever you build the new totem. However, the source totems exclude the building of other totems, because a city shouldn't have two source totems. Replica totems should not disallow you from building a source totem, so you can move a source totem to any city that doesn't already have a source totem. I agree this is cumbersome, but would would require either Python or C++ to fix, so it'll probably be put on the back-burner for awhile.
    :Edit: Sorry, I was wrong. I remember now that I had made it so that replica totems do not allow source totems in order to force some distance between the totems. This way you can't make 5 super cities that are guaranteed to have every totem. So this is intentional. Hopefully adding in the second set of totems makes this all less of an issue, though.

    2) Yeah, I'll think of something to give people a second set of totems in the mid-late game. They may just be the same as the main totems for now, and then I can balance adjust as needed.

    3 and 4) So I was wanting to put the promotions in the available promotion box in the unit pedias. Unfortunately this isn't possible - only promotions that you manually pick, and which cost XP, are displayed in that box. There's also no real way for me to put the mention (reliably) on the unit descriptions. The tribal promotions effect nearly all units, and the Chislev Spirit Affinity effects all disciple units, then some specific ones (Totemist, Mage, Archmage, Meskwaki, Warchief). I think these may unfortunately need to just sit on information Pedia pages - do you have any ideas of where I could put it for more visibility, outside of the Chislev+ Concept page?

    5) Alright, I'll leave those bonuses mostly as is. As you mentioned, some do seem better than others, so I'll think about that.

    6-9) Should be solved.

    10) I think I'll leave the Menawa be for now. I may give them a free promotion. Not sure yet.

    11) Huh. The Replica totems should be the exact same as their source totem counterparts. They should be giving promotions and all other bonuses, just as a source totem would. Is this issue of not getting promotions from them happening to you with all tribal and religious replicas, or just particular ones?
    :Edit: Were you referring to the forced tribe promotion? That one only applies to source tribal totems, but I couldn't put that on replica totems since there could be more than one replica totem in a city. If you meant the unit promotions, let me know, since that'd be a bug.

    12) Sounds good.

    13) Yeah, it is a concern that the watch tower seems to dwarf the bonuses that the religious temples give. Then again, I'm not sure that boosting the bonus that the religious temples give is the right answer. I pretty much based the bonuses of each temple off of some other civilization, so buffing them would lead to the Chislev being better in a terrain than the people who were born/raised in that terrain. For example, if I boost the Totem of the Frost to anything more than it gives now, then the Chislev would have a better tundra/taiga bonus than the Doviello, and that doesn't make sense thematically. I wanted to scale back the food that the watchtower gives to +0.5 per plains tile, but this isn't actually possible since it only accepts integers. I'll look into doing something like a terraform disable + automatic terraforming, but that will be... really involved. This one may take a bit to figure out.

    a/b/c) Ah, okay. I'll see how I can add tribes to these summoned units. Adding the totem bonuses would be trickier because the units are not "built" there, so building bonuses don't apply. I actually do have code in place that's supposed to give spawned warchiefs a tribe, but obviously that must not be working.

    d) I'm not sure how the world spell works, and haven't touched it in this module. I'll look into that.

    e) Sorry, I was using Shamans (like the Doviello), then changed the name to Totemist. They're essentially the same as Shamans. I know Black Imperator at one point was wanting a different unit line for something more shamanistic, so the mage/archmage will change over to that line when that time comes. But yeah, the mage/archmage art being default for Chislev is odd, but I'm not sure what other art I'd use.

    f) With this plains terraforming thing being an "issue", I think giving them Sun on the palace would only make it worse.

    g) I can ask around about the totem range on the module chat on Discord about that to get some ideas.

    h) I'm not sure about that. So the idea I took with religion on the Chislev is that their religion is a little more "primitive", I guess you could say. They don't have an organized religion. They're basically worshipping terrain/elemental spirits who happen to be the real gods. But because they're not religiously organized in a way another civ could be, it would be odd for the Chislev to be running around with "Eilodons of the Flame Totem". I feel like I've given the Chislev a pretty good buff in general, so I thought it needed to be a little give and take, so their divine powers suffer a bit. Those powers got shifted into the arcane to help compensate for that.

    I'll have to think about giving Menawa the ability to upgrade. I'm leaning towards no because people would probably expect the Menawa upgrades to carry over, and from a balance perspective, that would be a no-no, since you'd just build up everything from Menawas, upgrade them, then free up another slot for a new Menawa.

    i) I think I'll leave the horse archers be for now. They're a situational unit, but then, so are normal horse archers... and they're pretty good in the situation they're made for, at their time. So they're not really something you should be building regularly unless the situation calls for it.

    j) Unit values: Unfortunately I'm not sure at all what controls this. I'd need to ask around.

    k) Yeah, that's fine, better not to overload with features... and I'm pretty sure it will need a lot of number tweaking. There is a little emoticon at the top left of the GUI that brings up a menu with your reputation with each faction.

    l) The Dance of the Coyote isn't supposed to be a real awesome promotion. So each boost that I gave to The Council for winning a faction over is half of what you'd get normally from that leader's trait, plus some other little bonus.

    m) Sorry, could you rephrase?

    I'll look into the warchief thing.

    Hopefully I didn't miss anything.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  15. Alsark

    Alsark Noble

    Jul 10, 2006
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    You may now build a second source totem for the tribal totems. They all require 12 Totem Workshops.
    - Eagle Totem: Available at Tracking.
    - Coyote Totem: Available at Cartography.
    - Bear Totem: Available at Iron Working.
    - Serpent Totem: Available at Rage.
    - Tortoise Totem: Available at Sorcery.

    There is still testing to be done, so I'll probably upload the changes some time next week. This new version will be save-game breaking.
  16. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    @Alsark :
    great changes... Not sure when I'll playtest however...

    (I'm ok will all changes or not-changes... in general I always push for "moar"... but I know it's not always the best).

    plain-watch tower :
    mutiple alternatives:
    a) 1F is big, 1c is worth about 0.5F : so a 1c/plain would be the right value, but would play differently (much much reduced city size) ;
    b) 0.5health/tile could also be good, but that's only "potential 0.5Food"...(and not really hyper interesting)
    c) a global "0.5F/tile" (or 0.4) : so, on the tile you "only" get the normal value, but the city benefits a LOT from the free food : it would be about right for big cities... but however it'll hyperboost starting cities.
    0.3 (1F per 4tiles, 2F for 7 tiles, 3F per 10 tiles) would be too low IMO but would still jump start full-plain cities a bit too much
    d) another maybe good compromise could be
    0.5health/plains + 50%F traderoute : give a food bonus but it scales well : not too strong for small cities, and decent (coupled with the 0.5health) to bigger cities, and the health bonus scales with plain number & thus makes the plains tiles worthwhile by themselves especially for bigger cities or mid-endgame or @30AC..

    re-point m) : the written bonus for a coyote leadership is "cities get +1culture/turn", whereas in game it is "cities start with cultural level 2" ... which is great (and there might be a +1culture/turn, but I didn't check (I'm now bear since 4 councils... to get 50%chance for a free engineer)
  17. Alsark

    Alsark Noble

    Jul 10, 2006
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Thanks! Do you think if I switched to 1 C/plain that people would still want to terraform everything to plains? It would still make sense thematically, as the towers help secure trade.

    I think if I did the 0.5 Health per plains idea, I'd need to get Black Imperator to add in an XML tag for that, as there's no way to do that by default.

    I'm also thinking I might make it so that it will boost food yields for certain worked resources, like deer, bison, etc.
  18. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    honestly I don't know.
    +1c will not be enough to force everything to plains : you'll need the grasslands to bring you food... but maybe the jungle +totem would be worth it. ; frost/tundra will not be worth it.

    the real question is : is +1c for plains balanced with losing +1F on water tiles...? I think it's not worth it : 1C = 1/2F or even less.
  19. azatote

    azatote Chieftain

    Jun 4, 2016
    I'm still experiencing issues with the replica totem system. I was able to build totems of the sea in several cities, though it is described as a national wonder. And I didn't get any replica totem until I had two totems of the sea in the city's vicinity.
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Jun 4, 2006
    before entering in a repetable CtD I noticed too that having replica totem of Bear / Tortoise / Eagle and Coyote in capital did not give any bonus to units built in cities : I did not get the "4" bonus (as should be expected), but neither did I get the bonus related to the totem of the tribe the unit was born with.
    example a Bear tribe unit "only" got the combat 1. It did not get "strong" as would have happened if built in the Bear Totem Main city.

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