Cho-Ko-Nu's must be the greatest unit

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Cabledawg, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    Cho-Ko-Nu
    Strength = 6
    Cost = 60
    2 First Strikes
    Does Collateral Damage
    50% vs Melee

    I have been having some really good luck ...or skill...playing multiplayer with Chokos. I read an article here earlier on how to get macemen quicker to get a powerful unit early. Well, with Chokos, they become way more powerful and stay powerful for a longer period of time than allmost any other unit.

    I ran some test against typical units that are below but first is my strategy for getting them early. I play as Qin Shi Huang who is Industrious and Financial....2 of the better traits around as far as im concerned.
    After my second city and after Ive put some axemen on my borders so people cant see Im weak, I build Pyramids in capitol. After building Pyramids, Im building Military and probably another settler, Ive researched part or all of Metal Casting by this point. I then set myself for a beeline to Literature for Great Library. During this time, Ive built a Forge and hired an Engineer to speed up my Great Engineer.
    I allways pop the Great Engineer right about the time Literature is done. Heres where i have a decision to make. If I either feel threatened by my neighbors by looking at power chart (which is typical in multiplayer) or I think i can build the Great Library without wasting a Great Engineer, Ill use the GE to lightbulb Machinery for instant Chokos.
    So how do they stack up against particular units...lets see. I opened up Worldbuilder and put some units in with typical promotions. Some test are 1 on 1 and some are against a stack of doom....this is where the unit really shines because of the collateral damage. All test were on flat ground....obviously terrain will alter these results, so take the high ground whenever possible.

    Choko C1 (Combat 1) vs Maceman C1
    Combat odds are 6.60 vs 5.71....Choko wins 9 out 10:hammer:


    I reversed it thinking that if the Maceman attacks first, results might differ...they do not

    Maceman C1 vs Choko C1
    Combat odds are 8.80 vs 9.60....Choko wins 9 out 10:hammer:

    Now thats with Macemen and they cost 70 hammers, but if you get them early, youll be facing Axemen and cats and youll be outnumbered. So heres a SOD coming your way.

    10 Axe C1 + 2 Accuracy cats vs 6 Choko C1
    5 Chokos survive and are now promoted and deadlier
    the collateral damage is huge on the stack:hammer:


    What about the other early powerhouse, the War Elephant
    it doesnt do well 1 on 1. With Combat 1, you lose 10 outta 10:cry: , but.....

    Choko C1+2 vs Phant C1
    odds are 7.20 vs 8.8......Choko wins 2 out of 5:cry:


    Choko Drill 1+2 vs Phant C1
    odds are 6 vs 8.8....Choko wins 2 out of 5:cry:

    These odds dont take into account the possible extra first strikes. Just build cheaper Spears with Chokos

    Now, would if you got an Elephant SOD coming your way...things change now because of collteral damge.

    10 Chokos C1 vs 4 War Elephants C1, 2 Crossbowmen Shock + C1, Medic, 4 Cats Accuracy
    6 Chokos survive, 5 without a scratch....collateral tore this stack up.:hammer:

    I wonder how they survive against Musketmen in a stack. Keep in mind, Musketmen cost 80 hammers vs 60 for ChoKos.

    10 Chokos C1 vs 7 Musketmen C1 + 3 Accuracy Cats
    6 Chokos survive and are promoted.:hammer:


    So considering the cost of Musketmen, Chokos are still a viable unit even up to this age....mmmm...I wonder how they do against Grenadiers which cost 100 hammers.

    10 Chokos C1 vs 7 Grenadiers C1 + 3 Accuracy Cats
    5 Grennys and 1 Cat survive all at half strength. :cry:

    So what does it take to beat this stack. How many Chokos do I need to beat this stack.

    15 Chokos C1 vs 7 Grenadiers C1 + 3 Accuracy Cats
    6 Chokos survive:hammer:

    Because of the additional Collateral damge, more units survived. Look at what was lost in hammers. I lost 9 Chokos which equal 540 hammers and the other guy lost 7 grennys and 3 cats which is 820 hammers.

    So, if youre using Chokos against a superior force bring 1.5 times there stack. Now if I have Grenadiers available, Im gonna build them, but ill still have a few Chokos in the stack. I dont think there is another unit on the battlefield that can last as long as the Choko. I use them for attacking cities. I might bring a few cats to take the defense down, but Chokos are the ones doing my collateral damage on a city. If I get them early, I dont need cats at all.

    Discuss
     
  2. Enigma256

    Enigma256 Warlord

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    in Warlord they even get autopromoted, as both chinese leaders are protective :D
     
  3. cv431410

    cv431410 Warlord

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    The only Melee unit that can match Cho-Ko is Samurais (UU for mazeman, who has anti-archer promotion). The rest of Melee units are no match; however, Cho-Ko are killed easily by horse and elephent. If you have to attack Cho-Ko with Melee units other than Samurais, lead the attack with cat.

    Samurais, on the other hand, do not have a clear weekness like horse and elephent, so is overall better than Cho-Ko in the cross-maze-pike age; but Tofu is such a slow researcher that he is not attactive.
     
  4. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I don't know about research, but I sure like me some Tofu at the Mongolian Grill. The healthy substitute for consciencious vegans.
     
  5. cv431410

    cv431410 Warlord

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    A poor researcher (Tofu) meets with a poor financier (Mogos), good match. :lol:
     
  6. svv

    svv Prince

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    Are they any good at city raiding? Or would you just have to build them as defense/cover troops and get swordsmen or something for your shock troops?
     
  7. wioneo

    wioneo King

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    They are better than swords. There are always some melee defenders in cities, and they get collateral damage. They basically remove the need for catapults other than tearing down defenses.

    Also, you won't be suiciding catapults, so you won't need to build any where near as many. I always fall off on producing kamikazes.
     
  8. braindrain

    braindrain brainiac

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    When Civ 4 first came out i had a big crush on the chokos, however i seemed to burn too many when taking cities, and when playing against competent players who don't stack up all their units, the choks loose much of their luster. Still a great unit though, especially in warlords.
     
  9. douglas_21

    douglas_21 Chieftain

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    Problem with your strategy

    There is very often HUGE competition for the Pyramids. An effective counter-strategy would be to build some cheap chariots and mow down the axemen by your border. However if you build axes and spears you'll spend that many less hammers on the Pyramids; 2 axes and 2 spears appears far weaker to an opponent planning an axe rush than 4 axes. I like to play as persia and make an immortal rush that can defeat anything but just as many spearmen. Given the outcome of Sword vs Spear and Axe vs Spear, I usually don't need to worry about my immortals being stopped...they're immortal, right? For team games, Numidian horse unit + immortal = great for stopping China from getting cho-ku-nu's or TOFU :)lol:) for getting samurai, or the Vikings from getting berserkerz.
     
  10. douglas_21

    douglas_21 Chieftain

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    Sorry about this post. I accidentally posted twice, then edited this one to make it shorter.
     
  11. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    Whenver Im playing multiplayer, I allways take into account who my closest neighbors are. I will build/Chop/slave Pyramids if I feel like im safe. There are plenty of times that i decide not to build it....ie: I see Mongols have horses in their cross or I look at the power chart beforehand and see someone close to me building up.

    I agree that Samurai is strong , but the point of this is getting a UU early that last for a long time and is cheap enough in hammers. If nothing else, when you produce your first ChoKo and send him to the border so the enemy can see him, its can stop someone from attacking you because lets face it....if you build Pyramids, you are prolly weaker than your neighbors.

    And dont forget, with Pyramids, you can go into Police state which effectively makes Chokos even cheaper.
     
  12. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    I ASSUME your mentioning the strategy I posted on the forum btw thanks for mentioning.

    The Piramids take WAY WAY WAY TOO long to build even if your industrious plus they take up 400 hammers better used on other things like settlers, workers and military units.

    Since Qin is Fin/Ind I assume your Playing Civ4 Vinilla, Your better off building the oracle to pick up metal casting and build a Forge within 15 Turns (7 if you use Mao (Phil/Org)) then assign a Engineer to create a GE to pick up Machinery 34 turns later.

    Personally I think Mao would be much better off picking up machinery earlier then Qin because he's Philosophical and Organised is sort of like a Substitute for financial, its easier to expand and you can whip those courthouses in those captured cities quicker.

    But then again this might not work so well on Multiplayer because I bet everyone is going for the Oracle LOL just my 2 cents.
     
  13. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    For a non Spiritual leader in multiplyer, going for oracle is out of the question. The Pyramids are such a huge boost, its usually an easy decision to go for it. I allways have mines immediatly and will chop it as well...its usually done in 17-23 turns or less if I have stone. Most people arent prioritizing Pyramids, so I can get it 19 out of 20 times if im trying.

    And yes, while building it, I am weak. But by the time people see that, Ive got the pyramids and can go into police state if neccesary. Now combine Represenatation with the Great Library and fast Chokos and the game is over.
     
  14. shivute

    shivute Prince

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    Play on a harder level on single player or against competant opposition on multiplayer. Chokos rock but they are easily taken down. A competant player will recognise this when facing the Chinese and plan accordingly.
     
  15. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    There is no panacea unit in the game. Every unit has an achilles heal that can exploited by savvy play.
     
  16. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    I dont play alot of single player except for a GOTM. Its not as much fun. A human opponent defends and attacks much better. The whole point of getting Pyramids, police State and early Chokos is to dissuade an attack from any opponent which allows me to get my infrastructure and science up. Any attack on me assures that both the attacker and myself will not win the game. Someone else who is not at war will pull away.
    Early wars in multiplayer need to be fast and overwhelming. Any bogging down and you will lose the entire game while someone else out techs you.
     
  17. shivute

    shivute Prince

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    Yup, same for single player. try emperor, it is quite a challenge until you get used to it.
     
  18. Narnian

    Narnian Chieftain

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    "They are better than swords. There are always some melee defenders in cities, and they get collateral damage. They basically remove the need for catapults other than tearing down defenses.

    Also, you won't be suiciding catapults, so you won't need to build any where near as many. I always fall off on producing kamikazes."

    It seems like, for city raiding, Chokos don't work as well as a combination of Maces and Cats. City Raiding is the name of the game on single player so I don't see them as great units for single player...
     
  19. Narnian

    Narnian Chieftain

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    sorry for repeat post- I made a mistakee
     
  20. weimingshi

    weimingshi Prince

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    Seems you never played with choko before. If you played chinese, by the time you amass an army of chokos, nobody can even build cats or maceman yet. chokos simply reck havok to other units of its time be it attacking or defending. And even if you do get mace and cats, choko is still the best defenders for your city. its an respectable defender all the way to grenadier/rifleman age. it has probably the longest useful lifespan out of all units before mordern age.
     

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