Cho Ku Nu?

[troytheface]

I have searched for a description of this UU on the web and only came up with a sentence on a quasi related site that stated that the cho ku ne was a repeating crossbow or something.....never heard of such a thing but i am curious if anyone has a picture or a more detailed definition of this weapon.
(was it really something that helped china remain in power? how come i have never heard of it- )

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey there Troytheface. I have posted a picture of the Cho-Ku-Nu, to give you an idea of how it looked-and worked. Essentially, there were around a dozen bolts loaded into that top wooden section. You fired the bottom-most bolt, then pulled the lever up and down to bring the next bolt into place-then repeat. In some ways it worked like a pump-action shotgun. It was at least as fast as an English Longbow, but also with all the benefits of a standard crossbow (i.e. the strength behind the bolt was massive). Anyway, hope that helps !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Reboot]

Links:

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm

http://www.codesmiths.com/shed/things/knives/chinese_repeating_crossbow/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

 

[Lockesdonkey]

It was the Chinese UU in Age of Empires II. Apparently, that was where it came from. Though I think they could have thought of some others...For example, the Fire Ox would be cool, though pointless (put a bucket of explosives on the back of an ox. Light the fuse. Slap it on the rear end. Hope it keeps going forward. Run away as fast as you can if it doesn't.)

 

[frekk]

It was at least as fast as an English Longbow, but also with all the benefits of a standard crossbow (i.e. the strength behind the bolt was massive).

A few misconceptions here.

First off, the English longbow was much more powerful than the crossbow (with perhaps the exception of arbalest-style crossbows). Second, the cho-ku-nu was very much underpowered compared to regular crossbows, with a very short range and not much force behind the bolt at all, almost zero penetrating power against armour of any kind. But it was good in the respect that a small number of men could launch a massive volley and pin down an opposing force quite effectively.

 

[Vietcong]

i am not to happy about this as a chines uu..

its range whold be poor, its acuracy extreamly low, and as said above, have litel penitrating power. overall i liked the rider much much more.

 

[mitsho]

but it represents China much better than Riders who never were really a core element of a Chinese army (that's what I thought and heard, could be wrong though, any chinese history geek wanna educate me? ).

Besides, we - if the assumption of one uu per leader is correct - already have two 'rider'-like uu's in the game (Genghis and Kublai Khan).

mfg mitsho

 

[troytheface]

well thank you there aussie lurker- and others - apprciate the time there- interesting- it is like the fictional "Van Helsing" movie crossbow- lol- and there i was thinking to myself - no way......
what a strange invention never to have heard of before

 

[Lockesdonkey]

i am not to happy about this as a chines uu..

its range whold be poor, its acuracy extreamly low, and as said above, have litel penitrating power. overall i liked the rider much much more.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Range, accuracy, and penetrating power have no influence whatsoever on Civ-style combat.

 

[frekk]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Range, accuracy, and penetrating power have no influence whatsoever on Civ-style combat.

Errr .... of course they do ... it's just subsumed into effective fighting strengths. Bowmen and riflemen have different combat ratings because of the relative efficacy of their weapons in combat ... things like range, accuracy, and penetrating power are simply taken into account.

 

[Vietcong]

but im sure we can find a unit that represents chinas millitary much more then even this unit, im prity sure it was not a "staple" nor a weapon of massive use in china. alltho im not going to say thats for sure cus i realy dont know, just trying to make a ausmption.

the rider may not have been a force used only in china, but i think it was still probly used much more then the crosbow thing and in a way represents chinas vastness much more, as its able to quicly travel from one end to the other as needed. but i honestly cant think of a "good" uu for china. like u said the rider wasnt only used in china, and the crosbow thing was a poor weapon at beast, and probly not used in major units or to much of mass.

 

[frekk]

I think the Fubing (called Weisuo in later times) troops would make a good UU for China. They were soldier-farmers, military settlers basically.

Sui and Tang dynasty army


During the sui, a full professional army was adopted. This is called the fubing system. In which 600,000 soldiers were placed under 600 battalion level headquarters (fu) to farm. They perform active service at the capital for 2 months out of every 18, or more frequently depending on the distance from teh capital.

Approximately 50,000 fubing soldiers on duty any one time were under twelve guard(wei) headquarters.

The fubing is very similar to the byzantine theme system.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=21&t=961

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Errr .... of course they do ... it's just subsumed into effective fighting strengths. Bowmen and riflemen have different combat ratings because of the relative efficacy of their weapons in combat ... things like range, accuracy, and penetrating power are simply taken into account.

OK, perhaps I exaggerated, but nontheless, it won't be the kind of big deal Vietcong made it out to be.

Sui and Tang dynasty army


During the sui, a full professional army was adopted. This is called the fubing system. In which 600,000 soldiers were placed under 600 battalion level headquarters (fu) to farm. They perform active service at the capital for 2 months out of every 18, or more frequently depending on the distance from teh capital.

Approximately 50,000 fubing soldiers on duty any one time were under twelve guard(wei) headquarters.

The fubing is very similar to the byzantine theme system.

This sounds like making the Company the American UU.

 

[Urederra]

but it represents China much better than Riders who never were really a core element of a Chinese army (that's what I thought and heard, could be wrong though, any chinese history geek wanna educate me? ).

Besides, we - if the assumption of one uu per leader is correct - already have two 'rider'-like uu's in the game (Genghis and Kublai Khan).

mfg mitsho

sorry, wrong comment....

 

[panzooka]

chu ko nu (zhuge nu) was invented around 200AD(cant remember) by zhuge liang
this guy is regarded as the wisest man in chinese history,
he is a master inventer,invented many machinary such as repeating crossbow, Ox horse??(sor of automatic wheelbarrow thingy), hot air baloon.
he is a master tactician, the famouse battle is "battle of chibi"(battle of red cliff)winning over near 1 million army with little of 50 thousand troop.
under his command, their side almost have no lost battle
he is the master of geography and astrology, he predicts weather that helped him to win the battle of chibi.

chu ko nu is like the machine gun of the ancient age, same rule as today, a submachine gun loses fire power, range, and accuracy over a regular rifle, but allows rapid fire.
if u have to go to war, and u have a choice to pick a bolt action rifle, or a submachine gun, u probably will the submachine gun.

other possible chinese UU can be the "fire lancer"(borrowed from rise of nation) that replaces the musketeers, instead of firing round bullets, they fire rockets of fireworks, much more damage and range.

another possible chinese UU can be the "wuxia". similar to knigh errant in the western world and sumurai in japan. what is wuxia? crouching tiger and hiden dragon is all about wuxia.
it is very unique to chinese culture, thus, western world have little knowledge about it,

 

[ax2047]

Agree. In fact wuxia much much better than the cho ku nu. It is odd that cho ku nu as a weapon, he is a famous people in chinese history. If a weapon called Hannibal, how about your feeling ?
Wuxia can represent a group of people who is the master of martial art. I think it is more acceptable for people come from china

 

[frekk]

This sounds like making the Company the American UU.

More like making the Legion the Roman UU ...

Fubing units mark the first really well-organized military in ancient China .... but also mark a sort of unique development, the military settler. Not completely unique, the Byzantines did something very similar (and to a lesser degree so did the Romans). But it would be more representative than the cho-ku-nu, which was more or less a novelty of little practical use. OTOH, Chinese military did make much use of the crossbow very early on (much earlier than in Europe) and it's not totally unreasonable for the ancient Chinese to have a crossbowman of some sort as a UU, but it wouldn't typically be the repeating crossbow.

 

[panzooka]

Agree. In fact wuxia much much better than the cho ku nu. It is odd that cho ku nu as a weapon, he is a famous people in chinese history. If a weapon called Hannibal, how about your feeling ?
Wuxia can represent a group of people who is the master of martial art. I think it is more acceptable for people come from china

sorry that person's name is Zhuge Liang "诸葛亮"（Surname / Givename)
that repeating crossbow is invented by him, and he call it "Zhu ge nu" "chu ko nu" "诸葛弩" . nu ( 弩 ) is the word for crossbow.
lol i know chinese name are confusing.

abit history about chu ko nu that i know.
its invented by him during the three kingdom dynasty, only had limited number of it, because its harder to craft, and the bolt is a new type.
so during three kingdom, it wasnt widely used, and after his death. the drawing plan of chu ko nu is burried with him.

the technology was "lost" for sometime, untill people redicovered it again.
then it WAS WIDELY USED AND PERFORMED REALLY WELL in the first sino-japan war during the 1800's.

as for wuxia, wuxias was never part of the military, much like sumurai, but sumurai was in the game so who cares.
its more fantasy styled and appeal

however, both "fire lance" and chu ko nu troop was in the military.
more historicly correct, and represents scientific advanced ancient china really well.

it would be cool to have more than one UU for each nation

 

[troytheface]

ah but once again the word "unique" comes into to play - other armies had citizen soldiers, and mounted knights- i can see why they chose this repeating crossbow as it fits the bill nicely (one of a kind)
as long as i am on the subject - i read alot of posts saying that marines or minute men ought to be the american uu but in so far as i know the british had better marines and citizen milita is for every country-they need to keep it "unique" - which is why i say space Shuttle! (or A bomb)

 

[Reboot]

Frankly no special unit stands out as a staple of the Chinese military history. Some ideas:
- Chariots. Chinese chariots defined the very ancient nobility of China is pretty much the same way it did for the Egyptians. But the Shang excavations show that the Chinese enhanced their chariots to be greater in size and armament.
- Riders. Frankly cavalry didn't play that much a role in Chinese warfare. They are important, but just not overwhelmingly prominent. China was never much of a horse culture. But the stirrup was credited as a Chinese invention.
- Halberdiers. Simply to show the sheer size of foot armies that feature in Chinese warfare.
- Trebuchets. Yup its also attributed to the Chinese, but quickly adapted to use in many parts of the Old World.
- Missile units. Ancient Chinese use gunpowder in warfare mainly as explosives and to propel anti-personnel missiles. Some have attributed ancient missiles to the Koreans as well, but I'm guessing its a shared heritage between China and Korea.
- Fu Bing. This may be overpowered. Fu Bing should be regular troops that have very low upkeep that can contribute to the economy of the civ when not at war.
- Junk. This ship ruled the seas in its time, and encapsulated several noteworthy Chinese naval developments (compass, bulkheads, gimbles, etc.). The Chinese aren't as isolationistic as what recent history potrays them to be.

The whole point is what aspect of China would the developers want to show? The Riders in CivIII was pretty much a balance between Aggressive and Defensive. A Junk would make China more exploration/trade-focused, Missile units would make China an more of an aggressor, Fu Bing would show a more fast-developing China, etc.