1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Choose Holy City: Odd Behaviour?

Discussion in 'Bugs and Crashes' started by pi4t, May 30, 2019.

  1. pi4t

    pi4t Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    I have the option to have great prophets found religions turned on. Some turns ago, I researched Ngaiism, but decided to use the great prophet I got to build the wonder for another religion, with the intention to found Ngaiism at a later time using a great prophet obtained via normal gameplay. However, last turn France somehow managed to found the religion! Since they're behind in technology, there's no way they researched Ngaiism too (and the tech description says that should be impossible anyway). I can only assume that they got a great prophet, and he was able to found the religion despite the fact that France wasn't the one who'd researched the religion. Is this intended behaviour? If so, should that be spelled out more clearly in game?
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    25,686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Since religions cannot be researched by more than one nation, researching one now puts it up for grabs for anyone with a prophet after a few rounds of grace period has been given to the one who researched the religious tech. They can't steal it from you unless you choose to use the prophet for other purposes and don't have another to take the religion waiting in the wings or coming up the next round.

    After that point if they have a prophet twiddling his thumbs, he may realize he can take the religion and may well do so.

    Perhaps it should be more clearly explained somewhere but I'm not much for working on the pedia concept pages. If someone wants to explain this there, I'd support them doing so. This was a necessary response to the new rule that religion techs can only be researched once, globally, and is a current way to address the quandry that represents. I still have not considered a 'better' way to deal with it but I wasn't yet sure it would be a permanent rule. I'll try to remember to mention that in the new version of the player's guide at the next update.
     
  3. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,440
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    Alternative solution, Don't use Divine Prophets Option IF you want to Hoard Religions.

    Question: In BUG do you also have Multiple Religion Spread "ON"?

    If you don't use DP and have Multiple religion On then it is a Race to get any religion.
    Note: Although a couple of months or so ago there was a change that slowed the race down. I have not pinpointed where and what was changed ( I Think it was Religion giving Tech research Time being lengthened). I have not definitively proved that yet. The change was just enough that if you become Tech leader you can found many of the later Era religions. The 1st 3 Religions in Preh Era are still a race.
     
  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,742
    Location:
    Poland
    It was either Tech Diffusion or Win For Losing effect - one of those cheapen techs for everyone, if they were researched by someone.
    Religious techs were most expensive in same column because no one researched those - religious tech can be researched only by one civ.

    I guess this effect is more noticeable on slower speeds.
    Example: Techs A, B, C, D, E, F are in same column. E and F are religious ones.
    It takes 10 turns to research any of those techs, but due to TD/WFL influence (A, B, C, D researched by some civs) first four techs can be researched in 8 - 9 turns.
    E and F take 10 turns to research - no one researched them. If someone researches them, then no one else can research those.

    On faster speeds like Blitz/Normal you wouldn't see much of this effect, but on Marathon and slower speeds you could see noticeable differences in amount of turns to research tech.

    So something else devalued those religious techs.

    Disable TD/WFL in worldbuilder and you will see that techs in same costs cost same amount unless you play with Complex Traits.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  5. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,440
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    I'm going to shoot you down on this. I don't use TD/WFL in my Test games. And my test games are played on Normal, Long, and 1 on Marathon. I also do not use the Option DP. But do have Multiple Religion Spread in BUG On.

    The AI is Not as aggressive at acquiring a religion beyond the 1st 3 as they were at the beginning of this year. That is Obvious. I can get more religions Now than I could back then. And that timeframe was back when I was posting about long EoT's and not getting a game into medieval era with out 8 -10 minute EoT's. T-brd was not responsive to my posts in a positive way so I stopped the posts.

    So sorry you are on the wrong track raxxo.
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    25,686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Perhaps you misunderstand my lack of time to test this issue as a feeling that it would be good that they are less motivated to go for religious techs. That wouldn't be the case. If it is taking place and it's not just game variation you're experiencing, certainly we should do something about it and it wouldn't be hard once proven.

    Nothing has been directly done there to tamper with the will of an AI player to go after a religious tech, so it would be a completely indirect effect of something else.

    They aren't refusing to research them at all are they? That might mean there is a bug in the global tech mechanism possibly.

    Otherwise, there was no direct tampering with the AI.

    If the religions were made more expensive, they might be more reluctant to go after them, as that would reduce the value of them until the AI has achieved later techs that place the cost of those techs more in line with the usual tech they can obtain.

    Maybe that's all it is... we DID increase the costs of those techs, didn't we? Try reducing the costs of them and see if that changes the behavior.

    Hard to prove for sure because different AI personalities care differently about getting religious techs, which is why it's difficult to test directly and thus why I can't directly try to tackle this.

    IF that's the problem, which I would suspect it to be, then perhaps I need to tinker with things so that they can keep the higher cost but not have it deter the AI from going for them as a result. That would be difficult to do directly since that step is a final stage value adjustment that isn't part of the normal value build stream. I could simply say, if the tech is a religious one, take 50% more value than it used to... but should it be an adjustment for any dead end tech that is given more cost as a result of being a Global Tech, like Punk techs as well?

    1st thing to do would be to go through those religious techs and make sure they do have higher research costs than other techs in their x-grid. If that's the case, then I think we know what happened here and what I need to do.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,742
    Location:
    Poland
    Well you can check in tech definitions that religious techs have same cost as other techs in same column.
    Same thing in game.

    You had this one game with TD/WFL active - you did exception back then.

    I analysed that save, and while beaker costs were same for religious and nonreligious techs in same column their turn estimate were different - shorter for nonreligious techs.
    Maybe <bGlobal>1</bGlobal> tag on religious techs somehow messes with valuation of those techs?

    Now that you play without Tech Diffusion and Win For Losing you will see, that it takes same amount of turns to research religious and nonreligious techs in same column.
    You will be more sure on longer speeds like Long or Epic as TD or WFL cheapened already researched techs for everyone else and only turn counter but not displayed beaker cost was affected by either of options.

    By the way there are explicit global tags for that:
    Code:
        <Define>
            <DefineName>TECH_COST_EXTRA_TEAM_MEMBER_MODIFIER</DefineName>
            <iDefineIntVal>100</iDefineIntVal>
        </Define>
        <Define>
            <DefineName>TECH_COST_TOTAL_KNOWN_TEAM_MODIFIER</DefineName>
            <iDefineIntVal>50</iDefineIntVal>
        </Define>
        <Define>
            <!-- Research rate boost for knowing first OR tech prereq. -->
            <DefineName>TECH_COST_FIRST_KNOWN_PREREQ_MODIFIER</DefineName>
            <iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
        </Define>
        <Define>
            <!-- Research rate boost for knowing additional OR tech prereqs. -->
            <DefineName>TECH_COST_KNOWN_PREREQ_MODIFIER</DefineName>
            <iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
        </Define>
    I checked SVN logs and there was nothing about adjusting religious tech costs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  8. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,440
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    That game has been long gone. And is irrelevant. And you are still on the wrong track.

    Something was adjusted back then that slowed the AI down for going for a Religion. The slow down was enough that the AI puts off trying to research any Religion (past the 1st 3) because it takes several more turns to research the Religions. Emperor and Immortal Difficulty levels on the above (previous post) GS settings. The AI is about 2-3 turns slower at teching a Religion than I am now. Before it wasn't until Late Classical or Med Era before I could finally out tech the AI for a Religion in those 2 Eras. Now from the beginning of Ancient on I can get any religion I want 90%+ of the time. And I'm back to getting Tengrii (last Preh Era Religion) about 50% of the time. I am getting Mesopotamian Religion at a high rate of success. I can get Shinto, Andean, Judaism, Yoruba etc at will now.

    Prior to the timeframe I indicated this was not the case, as noted above.

    It was not a direct adjustment of the Religion Tech cost. If it had been I would've addressed it already.

    I suspect it was the Era tech cost or Handicap tech cost adjustments that were made back then. I have not pinpointed which nor eliminated either. As I have not had the time to do so since coming back from Utah. And I suspect it is something you adjusted Raxxo. Though at 1st I thought it was something DH may have done.
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    25,686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Hmm... if tech costs weren't a factor, I may have to review to see if when they were made Global that somehow had an impact on the AI's will to attempt them. I don't recall going out of my way to create such an adjustment but I have been known to make changes then forget I made them.

    Otherwise, the only thing that I can think of that would make an impact on this is the variation in the differing AI personalities. Some care more than others - different weight is given towards going after religious techs between different leaders. Do you have any way in your testing here, to determine that this is NOT the main factor in the changes you're perceiving?

    (Aka, are all the games you're playing being played with the same leaders and scenario setup so that all have access to the same factors that led to their research strength as well as the same wills to pursue religious techs as a goal as you had in previous games?)
     
  10. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,742
    Location:
    Poland
    Era tech costs dictate price of techs for everyone:
    No change at Prehistoric, 1.5x for civs in Ancient, 2x for civs in Classical and so on in 0.5x increments.
    So civs in Ancient era have 50% more expensive techs and civs in Classical era have 100% more expensive techs compared to civs in Prehistoric era.
    It should be same thing as readjusted tech costs in tech infos.

    As for handicaps tech cost steps was 5% bigger tech cost discount for AIs for each handicap and 2x that for Nightmare.
    So AI with player on Noble/Prince/Monarch/Emperor/Immortal/Deity/Nightmare handicap had 0%/5%/10%/15%/20%/25%/35% discount on techs.
    I lowered those steps to 3 per handicap and then increased those back to 4 per handicap so its now 0/4/8/12/16/20/28 % discounts.

    I lowered those tech discounts (and shrunk generated map sizes) to combat increased end of turn wait.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  11. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,440
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    All AI are set to Random at game set up. Each Game usually has 6 - 8 AI.

    I do use a set of 4-5 leaders for my empire. The set includes David, Deganiwida, Roosevelt, Lincoln, or Washington, or Leonidas. I do occasionally do random for my empire. But not recently.

    Traits are either stock C2C, 2 current games are with your New traits but w/o developing leader option, or No traits at all.

    Since 1 of the New trait games is very recent the New Trait set may very well be a contributing factor in that game. That is also the Game that I used the Barb World Option. And it is the most advanced game at 525 AD.
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    25,686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    There's a lot to consider in creating a controlled test environment and I imagine each time you play it's on a new map right? new map, new random leaders, maybe traits maybe not. There's a lot of variation here that could explain how games can vary in results.
     
  13. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,440
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    This is true. But one would think then that the AI results would be different in regards to acquiring Religions.

    Coincidence? Perhaps. Test group atm is only a 5 game set. And some are more advanced in play thru time than others. So....I'll leave it alone for a while longer.

    Perhaps other players will start seeing it too....or not. :)
     
  14. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,140
    Gender:
    Male
    Perhaps it would be more clear if everybody automatically gets the religious tech for free once one civ researches it? (like the "encyclopedia" project)

    After a year of absence, I decided to give C2C a new try (with latest SVN) and got confused when I tried to research Mesopotamism and got the mouse over "Can only be researched once in a game". So the AI beat me to it, but didn't found the religion ( I have "divine prophets" option on). So I wondered that if the civ that researched it, doesn't found it, the religion would be "lost" to the game.
     
  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,440
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    When you look at the Tech tree now during game play, if a Religion tech has turned Pinkish it has already been researched. That is a visual aid that was added in as well.

    Under DP isn't it always a chance that a Religion may never get founded? And even moreso when the regular Game set up Options of Limited Religions and/or Inquisitors are active "On"? Especially if the BUG Option Multiple Religion Spread is not On.
     
  16. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,140
    Gender:
    Male
    I did see the pinkish color. A simpler solution may be to expand the mouse-over text to: "Can only be researched once in a game. Any civilization can now found this religion with a Great Prophet."
    But that would only be necessary with the "divine prophets" option on. Necessary to avoid confusion, of course.
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    25,686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    That's a true statement after a turn or two grace period for the civ that researches it.
     

Share This Page