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Choose seven alternative leaders you'd most like to see on Civ6

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Xandinho, Aug 2, 2019.

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Choose seven alternative leaders you'd most like to see on Civ6

  1. Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (Arabia)

    6 vote(s)
    4.8%
  2. Acamapichtli (Aztec)

    3 vote(s)
    2.4%
  3. Akbar the Great (India)

    19 vote(s)
    15.2%
  4. Alfred the Great (England)

    22 vote(s)
    17.6%
  5. Ashoka (India)

    8 vote(s)
    6.4%
  6. Augustus Caesar (Rome)

    41 vote(s)
    32.8%
  7. Casimir III the Great (Poland)

    12 vote(s)
    9.6%
  8. Catherine the Great (Russia)

    45 vote(s)
    36.0%
  9. Charlemagne (France/Germany)

    39 vote(s)
    31.2%
  10. Djoser (Egypt)

    11 vote(s)
    8.8%
  11. Eannatum (Sumer)

    8 vote(s)
    6.4%
  12. Elizabeth I (England)

    26 vote(s)
    20.8%
  13. George Washington (America)

    42 vote(s)
    33.6%
  14. Harun al-Rashid (Arabia)

    17 vote(s)
    13.6%
  15. Hatshepsut (Egypt)

    37 vote(s)
    29.6%
  16. Huayna Capac (Inca)

    9 vote(s)
    7.2%
  17. Isabella I of Castile (Spain)

    40 vote(s)
    32.0%
  18. Ivan the Terrible (Russia)

    32 vote(s)
    25.6%
  19. Kangxi Emperor (China, Qing dynasty)

    7 vote(s)
    5.6%
  20. Khosrow I (Persia)

    27 vote(s)
    21.6%
  21. Kublai Khan (China/Mongolia, Yuan dynasty)

    35 vote(s)
    28.0%
  22. Louis XIV (France)

    35 vote(s)
    28.0%
  23. Napoleon Bonaparte (France)

    45 vote(s)
    36.0%
  24. Otto von Bismarck (Germany)

    50 vote(s)
    40.0%
  25. Ramesses II (Egypt)

    42 vote(s)
    33.6%
  26. Sejong the Great (Korea)

    17 vote(s)
    13.6%
  27. Tokugawa Ieyasu (Japan)

    10 vote(s)
    8.0%
  28. William of Orange (England/Netherlands/Scotland)

    29 vote(s)
    23.2%
  29. Wu Zetian (China, Tang dynasty)

    28 vote(s)
    22.4%
  30. Yongle Emperor (China, Ming dynasty)

    21 vote(s)
    16.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    If you want a military leader for France, go with Francis I, who invented the Siege Train of mobile cannon and bombards, or Henri IV (my favorite) whose pre-battle speech at the Battle of Ivry in March 1560 in its entirety was:
    "I am your king. You are Frenchmen. There is the enemy. Charge!"

    Louis XIV's Great Generals were Turenne, Luxembourg, Villars, Berwick - in fact, his ability might be a bonus to getting Great Generals, because the French Army during his reign almost always had good ones. That's often overlooked because at the end of his reign, during the War of the Spanish Succession, the French Army was up against John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough, and he wiped the floor with them.

    And by tying the French aristocracy to the throne and the French army, he ensured that the French aristocracy stayed absolutely loyal to the Bourbons right up to the point when they all went to kiss Madame Guillotine together: a Loyalty bonus would not be out of place for Louis.

    And given the number of second-rate copies of Versailles scattered all over Europe, it would be nice to have a tie-in to his own iconic Wonder, Palace of Versailles, giving both Culture and Diplomatic Bonuses.
     
  2. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Eww, hard pass to French Third Republic. I'll take Louis-Napoleon over that nonsense. :p
     
  3. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    True he did like keeping amenities toward himself and friends, but even giving him a bonus towards extra amenities for his palace and the chateaux improvements I think would work. I'd much rather give the Musketeer an ability to create a unique Great Work of Writing once they get promoted twice.
     
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  4. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Prince

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    Its a bit of a shame that Acamapichtli is tied for the least amount of votes. He seems quite different to Montezuma with more of a focus on alliances than wars and chinampas would've been a great UI for the Aztecs to have as long as they have a preference for lake tiles.

    Same for Casimir III the Great, I'm sure there could've been a fun ability around him being "the Peasants' King".
     
  5. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    It's been the first of the seven mythical kings, direct descendants of a lineage of kings, both from central Italy, and Mycene, possibly Troy.
    All others have been emperors, dictators, he's the only king up there, there;s statues, coins with Romulus effige.

    Troy is uncertain, Perseus is uncertain, we have records but to say they not existed is like saying that Cicero was a liar.... which is true but that's not the point...
     
  6. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

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    He’s a good candidate, but I’d take one of the founders of the Triple Alliance as a better example of a diplomatic Aztec leader. Nezahualcoyotl was one of these and was tlatoani of a different city than Tenochtitlan to boot, and so emphasises the city-state basis of the empire over the monolithic portrayal we tend to get with the Motecuhzoma-obsessed Civ franchise.
     
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  7. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    The key word here is "mythical."

    Apparently you haven't kept up with archaeology for the past 150 years because Troy certainly existed.

    I don't think anyone believes Perseus exists except maybe Greek neo-pagans...

    A Roman statesman professed to believe Roman foundation myths. Shocking. :rolleyes:

    Seeing the proper spelling of his name just makes me so happy. :D
     
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  8. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    In fact, several Troys, one on top of the other. Like most cities in Anatolia, it was destroyed several times by earthquakes, enemy action, etc. and the big debate now is which Troy was the one referenced in Homer, since the dates for the various Troys are much more accurate than the dates for Homer!
     
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  9. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Troy VII is usually considered Homer's Troy if I'm not mistaken.
     
  10. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    That was the one that was originally dated to Homer, until they discovered that Homer was being consciously anachronistic in his poems: that the 'chariot-borne heroes' he describes were, in fact, riding horses in his day, so the original 'date' for Homer had to be revised. Plus there have been connections between some of the 'Troys' with other states - like the Hittites and Lukka cities to the southeast - found in diplomatic correspondence fragments that don't quite match chronologically with any of Homer's dates. I think Troy VII still has a lot of backing as a 'best guess', but it's not as universally accepted as its was when I was in school (of course, when I was in school Troy was practically Current Events . . .)
     
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  11. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    As I recollect, Troy VI seems a little too early and Troy VII seems a little too late.

    That being said, Troy VII has at least four subdivisions too: VIIa, and VIIb1, 2 and 3.
     
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  12. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Counting the 'sub-divisions' of Troy VII. at last count there are about 13 'layers' of Troy from the Bronze Age to the Classical Era, but it has been excavated by several different groups after Schliemann, and every one of them seems to come up with a different interpretation of the layers and dates. At that, 12 - 13 different destructions of the city over about 2500 years is doing really well compared to, say, Beyce Sultan to the southeast in the Meander River Valley, which had over 20 layers, most representing the destruction of the city by earthquake and resulting fires. Western Anatolia has been seismically active for as long as people have been trying to build permanent structures there, and it shows dramatically in the archeological record.
     
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  13. earlofbrigand

    earlofbrigand Chieftain

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    France definitely needs some better options. Catherine de Medici and Eleanor of Aquitaine are not the first people anyone thinks of when asked 'name a great French historical leader'.
    Typically, the answer will be Napoleon, though Louis VIX (Sun King) may also get a mention. Catherine wasn't even French!
     
  14. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I know it’s kind of premature at this point, but what if they do end up releasing little leader packs in Civ6’s post-XP2 (XP3?) future?

    That survey seemed to indicate they were at least thinking about it.

    We could end up with 2-3 leaders for all the big named civs after all. That would also allow for some more unconventional or eclectic leader choices, as well as some cross-Civ overlap. What do you think of the following?

    America:
    Jefferson
    Lincoln

    China:
    Wu Zetian
    and
    Yongle
    or
    Kangxi
    or even
    Kublai Khan (shared w/ Mongolia)

    Egypt:
    Khufu
    and
    Hatshepsut
    or
    Akhenaten

    England:
    Henry VIII
    or
    Alfred the Great

    France:
    Napoleon
    or
    Louis XIV
    or
    Charlemagne (w/ Germany)
    or even
    Richelieu

    Germany:
    Bismarck
    Charlemagne (w/ France)
    or
    Charles V (I) (w/ Spain)
    or
    Maria Theresa (if Austria is out)

    India:
    Akbar

    Rome:
    Marcus Aurelius
    or
    Nero
    or
    Cicero
    or
    Constantine (if Byzantium doesn’t return)

    Russia:
    Ivan the Terrible
    Catherine II

    Spain:
    Charles I (V) (w/ Germany)
    Isabella
     
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  15. Xandinho

    Xandinho Deity

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    Meh, America doesn't need more leaders, cut them out and add more Persian and Arab leaders instead :p.

    Jokes aside, I still believe that there might be some alternative leader packs after a third expansion is released.

    By the way, I think about what happened with Isabella of Portugal, she was in the leaked picture of the leaders of the Civ6 base game. She could lead Spain and Germany.
     
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  16. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    They accidentally used the wrong image when making a second leader for Spain. Maybe they’ll repurpose her for Portugal, although she spent her life as Holy Roman Empress and Queen of Spain.
     
  17. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    America doesn't need more second leaders, especially the slave-owning Jefferson who had a child with one of his slaves (proven with modern DNA tests). Even the patient, soft-spoken President Washington personally despised. Jefferson was undoubtedly smart, but also immoral, and the America he wanted was a land of farmers, not the powerful nation with modern commerce that it is today.

    Similarly, Rome doesn't need a second leader, especially Nero. Whether he was as bad as they say is irrelevant; he was simply bad as a ruler and because there are numerous better Roman rulers, he should not be under consideration for inclusion in the main Civ game. Maybe in a scenario though. Cicero is not a great choice for Rome either because he couldn't have been said to have led Rome. At the zenith of his power he was still vulnerable to numerous rivals, who criticized his use of power to deal with the Catiline conspiracy. I guess he wasn't as deadly as Sulla, but still.

    I like Cardinal Richelieu for France and would add Henry IV the Good ("a chicken in every pot") as another nice option for a French military, happiness-based and religious option.

    I dislike Akhenaten for Egypt; he was an incompetent leader for Egypt who failed his vassals in Syria, allowing the Hittites to become a true threat to Egyptian power, and he decided to make his capital in the desert well away from water, founded a deeply unpopular religion that wiped numerous commoners and nobles alike of their favored methods of worship and destroyed thousands of years of Egyptian cultural tradition (albeit in favor, in some cases, of some truly excellent art). He may also have been assassinated, who knows. Egypt has many better options, from Thutmose III to Senusret III. Hatshepsut is a good option, not only because she was one of Egypt's best leaders, but because she would bring a unique flavor to Egypt that none of the others would (namely, a trade/luxury-based Egypt that still likes to build massive monuments). As for Khufu we don't know enough about him for him to be a truly viable option IMO, and from what evidence we do have, he was a harsh ruler whom many ancient historians disliked intensely.

    For India, I would add Nur Jahan, the gun-wielding, powerful, coin-printing, architecture-designing Empress of Mughal India that was the real power in the throne when her husband was indisposed.

    For England, Henry VIII is overrated, and Henry V was better, not just because of Agincourt, but because of his use of English and his development of English naval power.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  18. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Emperor

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    If Henry IV (The founder of Bourbon Dynasty) is to be French alt. leader, then well what should there be French UU?
    A. Royal Musketeer (Light Cavalry, YES they ARE mounted infantry and fights with muskets when dismounted :p)
    B. Garde Francaisse (Replaces Pike and Shot).
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Very few American presidents have been the portrait of moral rectitude. I agree that America doesn't need a second leader and I agree that Jefferson wouldn't be my first choice for an alternate American leader, but I hardly think that Jefferson's actual actions fell short of his loftier opinions should disqualify him from consideration. If sainthood is required for consideration, I think we're down to Tamar and Jadwiga. :p

    We've disagreed on this many times, but I'd simply say that in an iteration of civ that emphasizes big personalities, Civ6 is a prime opportunity to include Akhenaten, who through the sheer force of his charisma managed to transform an extremely conservative society for the duration of his lifetime. I'd argue that Akhenaten was probably one of the biggest personalities in Egyptian history. Also, as you point out yourself, the Amarna period was a golden age of Egyptian cultural expression. Akhenaten himself was a poet who wrote a number of hymns to Aten. Who knows but that Akhenaten's reforms might have lasted had he not grown weaker from ill-health in the latter part of his reign and had he not been succeeded by an easily-controlled child-king who was essentially the puppet of the priests of Amun for the duration of his brief reign?

    Very much agree. Henry VIII is certainly a big personality, but Henry V is no less so and has real accomplishments to back up that personality.
     
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  20. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I deliberately selected some “not nice” rulers with big personalities. Not every leader needs to be a paragon, and having second or third leaders gives an opportunity to include some really quirky choices.
     
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