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[GS] Chopping overflow is gone (announced by Ed Beach)!

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Tomice, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Its not moral, its that (especially with Magnus and Harvest) there is no real reason not to chop everything. It isn't a choice between short and longterm benefit, it always makes more sense to chop.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  2. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Err, I don't have a "moral" objection with harvesting resources. I do like vast forests & lush farmlands, but my reason for objection is different:

    (1) Harvesting resources is no fun. You basically remove the whole builder part of the game. And I'm saying this as a warmonger/hybrid player. But I acknowledge that builder players should have a valid chance to play their game style and it should be at least remotely competitive.
    (2) Harversting resources makes no sense: What does it mean to "harvest" rice? After all, you harvest it anyway? What does it mean to "harvest" iron? If you want to mine it, you just... build a mine.
    (3) Chopping is ok, but should not surpass building an economy. Chopping wooden ships is what actually happened in history. Chopping spaceships is just silly.
     
    Karmah, WillowBrook, Spicer and 2 others like this.
  3. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    @Victoria

    Ah, I see what you mean for England specifically. Never a faction I spent too much time with (compared to CiV, weirdly).
     
  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I’m glad you’re having success with putting Harbours at Shipbuilding.

    Rightly or wrongly, I think Harbours are designed to be harder to reach early. One reason might be coastal cities - if you think about it, you actually start the game with Harbour tech, because you can build boats and launch units from a coastal city. So, you have the option to just run with coastal cities for awhile before getting Harbours.

    The only Civ that hurts is England, because they need their Harbour to get their Naval bonuses (+1 Move and additional Great Admiral points). But then maybe FXS intended England to get to its Harbours later.

    But yeah, it’s too easy to get to campuses, and it devalues other districts. There was a long thread ages ago about pushing back campuses. I wasn’t sold on that idea, but something maybe should be done because campuses are just too strong.
     
    Leyrann and SammyKhalifa like this.
  5. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

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    Except you don't require an Encampment to build land units (provided you have the strategic resources, although that's likely to change somehow with G&S). The Harbour as a district is a combination of Encampment-style military production bonuses and Commercial Hub-style economic benefits. It is compared to those other districts that the Harbour is bad value.
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I am glad you play England a lot ( or did) @acluewithout because you will have tried beelining celestial navigation before and found it is a fail. It is a 2 leaf node for gods sake, and placing it at ship building is just like an encampment, it still is an investment that takes time to get to ship building. I would rather a tree leaf at shipbuilding for quads than a harbour being able to be skipped when you can build ships, that just makes no sense either.
     
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I was really only addressing two points (although I didn’t spell them out well). First, that’s it’s weird it takes so long to unlock Harbours or that you unlock them after Holy Sites. I don’t think it is though, because when you found a coastal city you create a kind of or pseudo Harbours. (You must do, otherwise how are the boats launching.)

    Second, that it’s silly Harbours are where they are in the tech tree. I’m saying it’s not, because maybe you’re meant to get to them late.

    Are Harbours currently worth the effort to get them? Hmm. I don’t know. Maybe not in Vanilla or RnF, but let’s see how GS buffs them.

    Ha! Yes I have tried! And yes it is a fail!

    I usually get to Harbours late in the game. Sometimes I like that. Sometimes it really annoys me. But I’ve never had much luck getting Harbours early. I usually end up with Commercial Hubs way earlier, and then if I’m not careful I’m struggling to find cities with space for Harbours.

    But I’m okay with Harbour’s current tech placement. I’m not sure, but I think I’d rather have Harbours be a bit stronger, or maybe Commercial Hubs to be a bit weaker (although, if I play efficiently, I appreciate CHs are actually already weak).
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  8. Cerilis

    Cerilis Stormrider

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    Mhrm, maybe harbours could give more extra science early than just the specialist? To kinda offset having to invest into the tech for it.
     
  9. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Yeah, I think harbors are the most interesting district, but it's always quite a while before I get around to researching/building one.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Great comment, good alternative.
    So, when you have a spare 20 mins play 40-50 turns just pushing a harbour on prince level. You then realise it puts you in a vary bad place.
    Now since moving it to ship building it is not as strong as building campus but it’s workable and a fun different approach. In no way have I found it OP and have no idea why something every coastal civ would know how to build is down a leaf node which can and normally should be avoided to be optimum.
    Getting your science back is an option, and free inquiry does that, but that leaf node push makes the strategy very risky even at Emperor.
     
    Phoenix1595 likes this.
  11. row2infinity

    row2infinity Chieftain

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    I'm glad. I never used the exploit, but read about it plenty, and it was lame gaming imo.
     
  12. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    But you don't need Writing until Banking/Gunpowder. The only reason you do it is to build Campuses and because you almost certainly have the writing boost.

    I agree with those saying that a cost increase for Campuses and their buildings would help. This might nerf Korea (though it's possible it'll make Korea stronger). It's the most useful district and the only one that hasn't really been altered.

    Another change that would both weaken Campuses and be historically realistic would be to change the Writing boost to interacting with another civ that has already discovered writing. Interactions could be as simple as opening the Diplomacy screen or, if that isn't enough, require you to send a delegation, send a trade route, make a trade agreement, etc. (I actually really like this idea and kind of wonder if this can be done through mods)
     
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  13. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    I almost never build a CH when I can build a Harbor. The Harbor is better and doesn't take up any land space. But I'm usually kind of behind where I need to be in terms of trade routes, so maybe I should target CHs.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I always wanted this, trading and being friendly got you more science... in this game you get the eureka's for capturing a city but not for trading / visiting. Those civs that trade is get friendly should be more scientifically productive in my view.
    Great Merchants are far more useful than great Admirals apart from for era points. especially when you get free trade routes and the like.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  15. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    With all the sense this makes, I'm surprised no one has modded a "no chop" variant with lowered build costs for districts, wonders, etc...There is no such mod, right? You know, come to think of it, I'm surprised Firaxis doesn't offer the "no chop" game as well as an option. I, personally, would rather play that way.
    Spoiler :
    NoChopping.jpg

    Edit: To a know nothing 1980's amateur basic language programmer, it doesn't seem like it'd be all that hard to code.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  16. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    That's a good point about GMs. I actually get annoyed when I generate a Great Admiral. Perhaps one could give you a trade route. That's not too unrealistic.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I know. I was in some of the threads. Nobody came up with a coherent framework for exploit that worked even in the context of their own reasoning so there was no basis for accepting the conclusion.

    Regardless, it was reasonably deemed too strong relative to alternatives and changed.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I try and keep note of which ones have used their +2 era points. Having about 5 GA’s with unused era points can be a blessing, I should not have to do this but I am determined to get some value, andgolden eras are mighty useful.
     
  19. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    I'm pretty sure I could do that. But I don't have time. If firaxis pays me 5000 $ I'll create this mod for them :)
     
    BarbarianHunter likes this.
  20. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

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    Without getting too tangential (since this thread is about chopping nerf), I do agree with @Victoria that Harbors come too late in the game compared to other districts. I don’t understand it either, since it is a prereq for many Classical Era wonders, but comes so late you are lucky to get any of the wonders online prior to the Medieval Era.

    In previous Civ games, I would always focus on building up a strong coastal/harvor city early, but now my priorities lie elsewhere because there is little point to rushing a coastal city without harbors to buoy them up (excuse the pun). The developers keep saying that they are making changes to the naval game for GS— I guess we will see.
     

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